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PROTRACK » ProTrack Team of the Century » 120m/130yds Contenders

120m/130yds Contenders

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31 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:20 pm

guess

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Here Here.

32 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:33 pm

Harry

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Cappo won Stawell from 2.25m and ran 12.29s. So for argument's sake, let's say he ran 6 yards inside evens (electric). There's been plenty of Aussie athletes run at Stawell running the equivalent of 6 in or better. They unfortunately didn't have the luck of running off 2.25 and run 'only' 12.29 to win.

That does not do the performance justice, the race was run into a strong head wind, just ask Todd Ireland and Tim Mason. It was before wind readings and adjusted times. Take that into account and it is arguably a sub 12sec run under todays timing methods if not better and ranks near the top.

Remember just a few weeks before Capobianco as a 19 year old ran 21flat into a head wind at the nationals 200m.

Had he not done that he would have run from 3.75m or better at Stawell.

To suggest he was lucky does not do the performance justice he beat all on offer and in 1990 when there were double the starters there are today. I'm guessing but in around 1990 entries would have been near an all time high.


Cappo 'played in his position' as well -he has the 2nd fastest 200m in Australian history. Horses for courses.
True.....but then why don't you award all awards based on the Austratian record holder for the century.

The drug issue I will ignore as his pro performances in 1990 were years before his drug case.


My Choice for the fastest 120m excluding Capobianco.

Steve Brimacombe
Shane Naylor

They were the fastest based on times in the list.

However if it is a pro team and pro performances are the main consideration then.
Steve Brimacombe and Andrew McManus (highest prize money winner of the century excluding Ballard) if you can assess his entire career into the next century.

33 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:47 pm

Admin

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Thanks Harry,

Points taken.

Just on the 1990 Stawell Gift - it would have been a very intriguing event had Dave Driscoll adhered to his coach's instruction not to run at Werribee. Winning the Werribee Gift cost him 2m and sent him back to scratch. I'm not sure Cappo would have won had Driscoll run in the final off 2m. Could have been a classic for the purists - Cappo off 2.25m v Driscoll off 2.0m.

Just on assessing one on 'fastest ever' - that would be doing a disservice to athletes from the early part of the century who didn't have access to the tracks, nutrition and other factors which enabled athletes to run faster in say 1990 than they did in 1920.

The times recorded are a factor but not THE factor - need to consider several variables to come up with the best two for the spots.

http://protrack.easyforumlive.com

34 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:19 pm

Sharkey

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Harry
Looks like they are the best you saw,being so adamant.I would put a few others ahead of them who were a bit before them and performed more consistently over a longer period.Unfortunately we cannot compare Amateur times for a lot of these guys as it wasn't a two way street and also if you could they didn't have the same quality of tracks to run on.All the same as stated there is not much between the lot of them although I could not put Naylor in with a clear conscience.But once again that is a personal opinion.

35 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:16 am

Harry

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No doubt they are the best I saw and i would be very interested to see who you would put in ahead of them.

Every Stawell gift winner is lucky some more than others the suggestion that Capobianco was lucky because the time was slow or Driscoll did not run from 2m are dissentious. I think Capobianco would have still beaten Driscoll any way. He did run from 2.25m at the age of 19 years. Later performances support this.

You could also argue that Capobianco was unlucky he did not have 3.75m or more, as most young runners had around the novice mark, and the wind was not going the other way. If so he would have run 11.7 and instead of it being 6 yards inside it would have been 11 inside. Put him on the novice mark as Brimacombe, Crawford and Ross had and you can only imagine what time he would have run.

I have no doubt that some of the old timers may have been as good as Brimacombe and Capobianco had they had modern training and nutrition methods. But they are unknowns and you can’t determine an award on assumptions and unknowns. Most of the old timers won Stawell from big marks the tightest being 5 yards most were much more. I have based my findings mainly on performances and are yet to see any stats from old timers that match Brimacombe or Capobianco. But by all means put some stats up, you may persuade me, as my memory only goes back to the 1970’s.

Capobianco was the first Australian athlete to make the Stawell gift final in 1993 (I think) from scratch running about 10-11yards inside even and Brimacombe followed the next year running a similar time. These performances were not matched until Ross ran from scratch in 2005; it is arguable that the Capobianco and Brimacombe performances were better than Ross in those finals. But in my mind the three are the best ever 120m Gift runners and hard to split over the 120m distance .The three would all be very close at their best over 120m.

It is also not fair to argue that Capobianco was treated favourably at the 1990 Bay with 1.5m, I think the situation was that the handicappers and powers at the time thought the Stawell performance was a fluke (as no one had been in this space before) but he did prove otherwise and followed up a few days later beating the best pro final field of all time in winning the 1991 Burnie Gift from scratch running 12 yards inside even. Ross was also treated in a similar way at the Bay after his win from scratch at Stawell, meeting most on similar terms as he did at Stawell.

36 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:01 am

youngy

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Thanks Harry, very well put. I agree with most points.

However I certainly don't agree with the Driscoll v Cappo argument. Running off scratch, Driscoll was beaten in a heat by less than half a metre in 12.39 (from memory). The way he ran at Werribee, the Stawell Gift heat & the Backmarkers 120m, I'm confident that had he run in the Stawell Gift final off 2m (at the age of 18) he would have won. But as you alluded to it is only conjecture and probably doing Cappo a disservice.

I'm with Sharkey in respect to the athletes of yester year, the tracks in the 90's were significantly better than those of the pre 70's. It's not only the competition tracks but the training 'paddocks', the likes of a Tim Banner, Terry Clarke, Dave Irvine, Bill Howard or Bill Sutton had to endure compared to the modern synthetic tracks that athletes have enjoyed in the last 20 years or so.

Pro runners, pre say 1980, were often not allowed to train on the local amateur tracks and so never had the opportunityy to hone their skills on fast tracks.

So in this case we look at their record - the races they won and ran in on off tight marks and the quality of the opposition.

There's at least 3 athletes I believe were the equal of Cappo but unfortunately born in a different era.

As I suggested before, purely on times, Phar Lap would have got smashed by a horse like Kingston Rule over the 2 miles of the Melbourne Cup, but no-one with an ounce of horse racing knowledge would consider Kingston Rule in the same class as Phar Lap.

Having said that, Harry, your comments have a lot of merit and are definitely food for thought.


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37 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:53 am

Harry

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Sure Youngy.

I am interested in the Stats of the old timers ....Wins, Placings etc,Handicaps,times (although you can’t put much weight on times in those days) As most of what I can gather by talking to runners and spectators of the time is opinion based and often exaggerated and conflicting and they get quicker and quicker with each beer. But having said that I do enjoy listening to the old pro stories and the stories of various Stawell campaigns it’s what makes the sport of professional athletics great. Many of which are no longer with us.

I do remember being with some old timers at the time of Capobiancos win and they were saying it was the best they had seen bar Ravelomanantsoa (one even questioned the 12 flat time Ravelo run saying it was much slower but that didn’t make for a good story). So it just makes me wonder about the stories of old.

38 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:19 pm

Sharkey

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beating the best pro final field of all time in winning the 1991 Burnie Gift
Harry,
Sweeping statements like this don't help your cause.And i think you are relying to much on Stawell results.A lot of runners have there best improvement after Stawell when the brakes are off whether they have won or lost and of-cause there are those who maybe never ran there.Many class Stoneys run in 1950 as the best run they have seen.One thing to remember the fastest is not necessarily the best.

39 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:03 pm

Harry

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I would challenge you to come up with a better Pro Final than the 1991 Burnie Gift. 5 runners behind 3.25m in a 6 man final. I have reviewed many records and never seen a better handicap race final field assembled at least not in a classic or grand prix final. No Stawell Gift final has ever had the class of runner as in that Burnie final.

Yes I do have a bias towards Stawell Gift results because at the end of the day it is the race that measures pro running and the race most want over any other. If you were unable to do well at Stawell then you can hardly rate in a team of the century when the bench mark is running 10-11yards inside even from scratch in the Stawell Gift.

40 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:38 pm

Sharkey

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All runners behind 3.25,but earlier they always had Australian championships The best pro's in Australia all off Scr.Runners like Howard,Sutton,Clarke,DaveIrvine,Ken Irvine,Burley,Michael Cleary and many others before them,So if you look a bit deeper its not "fait a compli" by any stretch of the imagination.

41 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:40 pm

youngy

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In the 1920's pro-running was stronger for depth of talent than the amateurs. Some of the best amateurs turned pro because the standard was higher and they could test themselves against the best in the country plus of course the money was good.

The standard was so high, the national & world sprint titles were shared among Tim Banner, Tom Myles, Austin Robertson and Lynch Cooper. They had to be at their best to win and any drop in form meant they'd get hammered. They also had to perform due to the depression as most didn't have a job. Basically they ran to eat!

Tim Banner went overseas and best the pro runners in the UK (again in an era when pro running was strong in Britain).

btw, I wasn't at the Burnie Gift in 1991, preferring to go to Maryborough (where Brimma came 2nd) but I remember when the result came through how pissed off I was for not going over and missing Cappo's run and the gun field that had made the final...it must have been a cracker of a race.

PS: Harry, be good if you registered, you demonstrate "Expert" knowledge and deserve a few rep points.
Laughing


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42 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:06 am

Harry

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Sharky you need to consider like with like I’m not referring to backmarker or scratch or championship races I’m referring to major gift finals.

It is my opinion and I don’t make the comments lightly. I’m just adding another perspective, and as I witnessed that race in Burnie in 1991 I have form that view...if you were there you would never forget the experience. ..you obviously were not there.....I definitely have not seen anything since to match it. The only other experience where I have felt the same atmosphere and disbelief was when Ross won Stawell from Scratch. And I think it is a creditable view as do many others. I do often wish that athletics in Australian was as strong now as it was then and even back to the 1920’s

Yes I am not alone

This is how the race was described by Noel Hussey the 1964 Stawell Gift Winner ..... “the greatest Australian sprint race....I doubt we‘ve ever seen two scratch runners of the calibre in one field."

And Michael Stevens described it like this.... “Capobianco’s win will long be talked about as the greatest sprint performances in professional running. He lined up in the classiest of Fields. Beside him on scratch was the bald-headed Naylor, (National Champion) confident that he could win his third Burnie Gift Final. Australian Commonwealth and Olympic representative Robert Ballarat started on 2.5m. O’Dwyer , a former Stawell Gift finalist and Collins off 3m......Capobiancos’ time of 11.90 seconds which in old terms is the equivalent to running between 11 and 12 yards inside even.. He becomes the fastest man to run the 120m sprint in the 104-year history of the New Years Day carnival. ..he beat the national sprint champion from scratch.”

Sue Bugg states...”Capobianco’s win, from a Burnie Gift Field experts agree was the best ever gift final assembled”

TAL Handicapper Mike McKenna said ......”.the field contained the greatest depth of backmarker in the Gifts history.....I have no doubt that yesterday’s Burnie Final was the best sprint race ever run in Tasmania and ......Australia.”

The 1991 Burnie Final was
Naylor (Scr)
Capobianco (Scr)
Ballard (2.5)
O’Dwyer (2.75)
Collins (3.25)
Potter (8.5)
Two National Champions Three Olympians and O'Dwyer. We all now know what Naylor, Capobianco, Ballard, O’Dwyer and Potter went on to do and what Ballard and O’Dwyer are still doing 20 years on.

43 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:29 am

youngy

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Good call Harry.

Hard to dispute your facts.

From my perspective the best Gift winning performance other than at Stawell I've personally witnessed was the 1994 Keilor Gift. Steve Brimacombe off 0.50m won in 12.14s and if you look at the Keilor results over the years and see the times run, you would appreciate the magnitude of the performance.

I remember some long time Keilor Football Club identities who were blown away by the run and could not believe what they saw and said they couldn't fathom how fast Brimma was. I reckon I heard the word "unbelievable" umpteen times that day from people who had no connection with the sport but felt privileged to have witnessed something special.

I thought it was marginally better than Brimma's 2nd at Stawell off scratch (6 weeks later) when he ran 12.18s.

If only we had film of it.......


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44 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:59 am

Harry

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I think Brian Morgan might have a video of that race.

45 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:08 pm

guess

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The only other experience where I have felt the same atmosphere and disbelief was when Ross won Stawell from Scratch.

Harry,
The thing that worries me are the ?mark hanging over Cappo and the statement above by you as that win by Ross was very soft in the scheme of things.

46 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:19 pm

Harry

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Sure

But if you were there in 1991 you would understand ... the crowd in awe of something special.

Yes ....you could argue that the 2005 win by Ross was soft, it was a slow time, but again if you were there and felt the crowd raise as one to solute an achievement never done before you would understand.

Brimacombe's run in 2004 at Keilor was awesome but being a smaller crowd didn’t have the same atmosphere.

I was lucky enough to see all three of the above but the first two were exceptional.

47 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:30 pm

guess

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Don't assume I wasn't there Harry.Maybe my expectations are different to yours.

48 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:37 pm

youngy

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TOP 12

Tim Banner (NSW) 1920's
Steve Brimacombe (VIC) 1990's
Terry Clarke (VIC) 1950's
Bill Howard (VIC) 1960's
Gerald Hutchinson (VIC) 1950's
Dave Irvine (NSW) 1960's
Treva McGregor (VIC) 1970's
Andrew McManus (VIC/WA) 1990's
Shane Naylor (VIC) 1990's
Steve Proudlock (NSW) 1980's
Austin Robertson (VIC) 1930's
Bill Sutton (NSW) 1960's



It's getting tougher to reduce the number each time. Had to do a lot of thinking & research over the weekend. Basically came down to comparisons between athletes of a smiliar era. Very difficult to pick but I'm comfortable with the top 12.

The four that are gone:
Lynch Cooper - got down to a decision between Robertson & Cooper and Robertson got the nod because of his superior championship record. He actually won the 130 yards race in 1929 when Cooper won the world sprint series title on aggregate points and the next year Robertson won the world title with a clean sweep of the events.

John Stoney's career whilst spectacular was a little too brief, just 1948-1950 - cut down by injuries and other circumstances. He won Bendigo in 1948 off 5.5yds, ran 3rd at Stawell off 2 yards in 1949, won the national sprint title in 1949 and finished 2nd to Barney Ewell in the world sprint title in 1950. Gerard Hutchinson's best running went for longer, from 1951 to the late 50's, winning several Gifts off tight marks including Daylesford, Numurkah, Maryborough, Port Fairy and Traralgon. He won Warnambool off 3 yards in 12.0secs and won Wangaratta off 2 yards in 12.1secs.

John Decoite - classy athlete, adept over any distance from 70m to 400m. His best distance was probably in the 200m to 400m range. Had some very good Gift results including 3rd at Stawell in 1981 off 3.25m, but once he got right back in the Gift marks, DeCoite wasn't quite as successful as the others in the top 12.

Chris Perry - After Perry won Bendigo off 3.50m and started running from less than 2.0m he really didn't have the impact others in the top 12 had off the 2.0m back to scratch range. He made the occasional final until 1986 but after that his Gift running deteroriated mainly due to injuries. Although Perry's 100m amateur running (10.34 & 1986 Comm Games) was better than Proudlock's, in terms of pro track 120m, Proudlock's performances betwen 1981 to 1985, especially in '85 at Melton, Waverley & Stawell outshone Perry's.


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49 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:09 am

youngy

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TOP 6

Been busy of late. Will post some detail about each of the last five over the next few days. Will push back the announcement of the two 120m/130yd members until further notice.


Tim Banner (NSW) 1920's

Tim Banner was born in Mascot New South Wales on 10th November 1903. He won his first race at Parkes NSW in 1923, but soon moved to Victoria to train with 1923 Stawell Gift winner Jack Curran. At the age of 21, Banner won the 1925 Stawell Gift off 5 yards in the time of 12.16 secs. After Stawell Banner soon became the best pro runner in the land with a string of impressive performances off back marks. He won the national sprint title   before heading off Britain in 1926. At the Clyde Football Club Invitation, Banner won the 100 yards off scratch in 9.75secs, defeating Scotland's best athletes. On 3rd September 1926, Banner represented Australia in the world professional sprint championships at Clyde. He won the 120 yards title in 11.8secs and the world title, the first time an Australian had held the title since Jack Donaldson in 1917. Banner ran in the 1927 Powderhall New Year Sprint from scratch, conceding over 9 yards to most of the field. He returned to Australia, winning the Sale Gift off 2.5 yards in 12secs, the St Patrick's Day Gift in Melbourne off 2.5 yards in 12secs and the Horsham 100 yards off scratch in 9.75secs. He had a string of wins at Deniliquin, Swan Hill, Warracknabeal and Camperdown. In Sydney he ran off 1 yard in a 120 yard handicap event, winning in 11.2secs.

As the national and world champion, Banner contested the 1928 world sprint title at the Melbourne Motordrome, only to be beaten by Tom Myles.  In 1932 he won the Australian 130 yards title and returned to win the world sprint title.

In 1932, at Wangaratta, Banner again won the Australian 130 yards title and held it until he 'retired' in 1935, defending the title at Burnie on January 1st 1935, beating Austin Robertson and Scotsman Willie McFarlane and setting a new Tasmanian record.

Banner was a 'specialist' over 130 yards and held the Australian record of 12 5/16sec which was not broken until 1949.

Steve Brimacombe (VIC) 1990's

Dean Capobianco (WA) 1990's

Terry Clarke (VIC) 1950's

Dave Irvine (NSW) 1960's

Shane Naylor (VIC)1990's


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50 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:38 pm

youngy

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Got a lot on at the moment, so haven't been able to keep up to date with this. Will get back to it at some stage!



Last edited by youngy on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total


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51 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:03 pm

Iron Maiden


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youngy wrote:Got a lot on at the moment, so haven't been able to keep up to date with this. Will get back to it at some stage!

Probably by end of October.


Cheers Youngy.

I am anticipating your selections. I hope that you can find time soon to complete the team.

52 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:01 pm

Mex

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Probably a bit late for a tip, but I think Brima or Naylor. Has been a good read so far and am looking forward to the last few entries.

53 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:57 pm

youngy

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Thanks for your patience. Been extremely busy since the season started to hot up.

I was able to spend a bit of time during the winter sourcing out info, but it's been hard to devote the time of late.

I have got two in mind. Just need to spend some time on the profiles of the other four candidates (apart from Tim Banner) to do the selections justice. I have changed my mind several times so there has been a lot thought about these two spots.

Reserves I have in mind are known for their versatility.

Hopefully I can steal some time in the next week or so to finish this project.


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54 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:38 pm

GT


Edmonson 1977

55 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:38 pm

Oldtimer

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Hey youngy,

Any chance of updating this team?

Reserves I nominate Hipworth and Decoite.

56 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:22 am

dkrushka


Sam Kirsopps run at Wangaratta when he went 9.25 M inside evens was better than several others best's on this list.

57 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:25 am

dkrushka


Also what about Ravelo, or is this just Aussie atherlets?

58 120metres/130yards contenders on Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:21 pm

Guest

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I wonder how many of these great 120 metre and 130 yard nominees for team of the century were either directly coached or influenced by Jim Bradley's training methods?

59 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Ryan Witnish


Others wrote:Bennetto, O'Dwyer, Witnish, Richardson, Singleton all about the same as Webster and not on list. Singleton probably biggest name missing, definitely as good as some listed.

No we were not. Singleton would of beaten me, Poddy and I were about the same at our best and we both would of beaten Bennetto and Richo off the same marks !!!!
And Webster was an average sprinter at best who would never have had a chance of making a national 100 m final.

60 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:46 pm

JH

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I think people are losing sight of what this was about!
Yes everyone can come up with names who were or are very good runners and name some great individual runs by these people over the years and some of the names were very good handicap runners,but not in the class of the ones who were declared the best.They would consistently give great runs and that's why they were champions.

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