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PROTRACK » ProTrack Team of the Century » 120m/130yds Contenders

120m/130yds Contenders

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1 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:56 am

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Be interested in people's thoughts. Feel free to nominate someone.

This should open it up to quite a few nominations. Probably the most competitive distance in pro-running.

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2 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:59 pm

ExRunner

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60's again - Bill Howard, Bill Sutton, Dave Irvine, Terry Clarke.

3 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:20 pm

Top 40

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Top 40
Arthur Postle
Jack Donaldson
Bill McManus
Tim Banner
Frank Schulz
Jack Curran
Tom Myles
Fred Ralph
Austin Robertson
Lynch Cooper
Tom Roberts
Arthur Martin
Frank Banner
John Stoney
Gerald Hutchinson
Terry Clarke
Ian Probert
Bill Sutton
Ken Irvine
Dave Irvine
Bill Howard
Basil Burley
David Grubb
Treva McGregor
Peter McPhee
John DeCoite
Steve Proudlock
Gary French
Chris Perry
John Dinan
Robert Kirsopp
Robert Ballard
Shane Naylor
David Driscoll
Dean Capobianco
Steve Brimacombe
Andrew McManus
Simon Bresnehan
Glenn Crawford
Ross Smith

4 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:45 pm

Iron Maiden


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Jack Marsh

The below article is quite intriguing!

http://protrack.easyforumlive.com/protrack-team-of-the-century-f2/pro-track-team-of-the-century-20-athletes-to-be-selected-updated-13-08-10-t14.htm

I understand that he ran his best just before 1900 but he is certainly worthy for a nom.

5 charlie samuels on Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:55 pm

smokey


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Here is another one to add to the extensive list I have google 3 separate articles on Charlie Samuels as he was know to the sport in the 1890's and reprinted them hear.

Credited with the startling times of 300 yards in 30 seconds flat, and 100 yards in 9.1 seconds, Charlie Samuels was considered by many to be the 'sprint champion of the world'.

In 1894 the 'Referee' stated that 'Samuels has, in the long course of brilliant running, established his claim not only to be Australian champion, but also to have been one of the best exponents of sprint running the world has ever seen'.

Samuels ranks as one of Australia's greatest sports achievers.

Though a heavy smoker and drinker, Samuels defeated three of the world's greatest sprinters - Harold Hutchens, Tom Mallone and Ted Lazarus - over various distances. Against Lazarus he won ninety thousand pounds for his backers. Note: I suspect that if the $90k is correct is would equate to some millions today
Note:I recall reading that when when he won the Botany Bay Gift, his trainer in a magnanimous gesture let him keep the trophy. His treatment was the ultimate ripoff.
Considered a troublemaker and a drunk, Samuels suffered the ignominies of assault and drunk-and-disorderly charges, internment at Callan Park asylum and was finally 'removed' to Barambah, the Aboriginal penal-type settlement in Queensland, where he died at the age of 49 years. Samuels ranks as one of Australia's greatest sports achievers.
*******************************************************

Samuels, Charles (c. 1864 - 1912)
Alternative Names:
Combo, Sambo
Birth:
c. 1864, Jimbour station, Queensland, Australia
Death:
13 October 1912, Barambah, Queensland, Australia
Cultural Heritage:
· Indigenous Australian
Occupation:
· runner (professional)
· Life Summary
· Abbreviations
SAMUELS, CHARLES (c.1864–1912), Aboriginal athlete, was born at Jimbour station, southern Queensland, and named Sambo Combo, one of three children of Combo and Mary Ann, Kamilaroi people from north-western New South Wales. He later became known as Charles Samuels because his older brother George was also successfully involved in pedestrianism (professional running). Growing up with the local Bunyinni people (part of the Barunggam group) and close to the sons of (Sir) Joshua Bell, owner of Jimbour station, Charlie worked as a stockrider and general hand. His talent for running led to involvement in such local professional circuits as Toowoomba. In 1885, accompanied by his 'owner and trainer' William Robertson, he competed unsuccessfully in a handicap event at Botany, Sydney. He returned in August next year and easily won the Botany handicap at the Sir Joseph Banks Hotel grounds.
His achievements at Sydney venues in the next few years led to his being acclaimed as an Australian champion and among the best exponents of sprinting 'the world has ever seen' over distances up to 300 yards (274 m). Samuels was 5 ft 7 ins (170 cm) tall. To a Referee reporter, he seemed built for speed, light in the upper body but with 'tremendous hips and thighs, and a long tapering calf'; his 'beautiful action was . . . the secret of his pace, as he was a lovely balanced runner'. He was also praised for his courage and determination. His times were consistently 'inside even time' (better than ten yards per second) with his best performance recorded over 134 yards at '9 yards inside even time' (12.5 seconds) at Botany in 1888, which was dubbed as an Australian record. Timings were suspect, but he was reported to have run 100 yards in 9.1 seconds. Samuels also competed in four match races against Harry Hutchens, the English champion, winning three; although popular with the public, they led to allegations about 'gate money and betting considerations'.
Samuels was described as 'a splendid tempered man', who would give his last dollar away, and 'the last Australian champion'—many believing that as Aborigines were doomed his like would not be seen again. Rife with bribery and corruption, however, pedestrianism was barely surviving by 1892, as amateur athletics and other sports gained greater popularity. When not in training, Samuels fought occasionally at Larry Foley's White Horse Hotel. His success as a runner led to handicaps that restricted both his winnings and the financial rewards for his managers, who increasingly left him on his own. Tensions and frustrations emerged. Although he was associated with drinking, fighting and some 'stiff' (fixed) racing, he retained public admiration. He lived for a time at a camp at Centennial Park, then moved to La Perouse Aboriginal reserve at Botany. There he was reported in 1894 to have a grievance against the police regarding his rights. In 1896 he was admitted into the Hospital for the Insane, Callan Park, with a 'form of mental disorder (Melancholia)' caused by 'ill health & love affairs'.
In January next year, wasted, and viewed as a nuisance, Samuels was sent back to Queensland at the Aborigines Protection Board's expense. He returned to Jimbour station but, made unwelcome by the new owners, led a wandering life and was seen at some local running events. In 1905 he and his wife Maggie and two daughters were staying in Brisbane and Samuels was reported to be drinking and threatening relatives. On 17 May the family was transferred to Barambah Aboriginal reserve. Maggie died of consumption on 13 October in Maryborough hospital. Both children contracted the disease and died in January 1906. Samuels for the most part continued to live and work on the settlement. He had a second family but an infant child died in 1911. Predeceased a few days earlier by his wife Lizzie, Samuels died of pulmonary tuberculosis on 13 October 1912 at Barambah.
Select Bibliography
Tom Petrie’s Reminiscences of Early Queensland (Brisb, 1904); Queensland Chief Protector’s Report, 1904/05, p 18; Referee (Sydney), 5 Dec 1888, p 7, 21 Aug 1889, p 3, 28 May 1890, p 3, 1 Nov 1893, p 3, 2 May 1894, p 3, 6 Nov 1912, p 9; Sun (Sydney), 24 Nov 1981, p 42; G. C. Blades, Australian Aborigines, Cricket and Pedestrianism: Culture and Conflict, 1880-1910 (B.A. Hons thesis, University of Queensland, 1985); Callan Park, fol 95, no 3776 (State Records New South Wales); A/58675, A/58676 (Queensland State Archives).
Author: Genevieve Blades, Ken Edwards
Print Publication Details: Genevieve Blades, Ken Edwards, 'Samuels, Charles (c. 1864 - 1912)', Australian Dictionary of Biography, Supplementary Volume, Melbourne University Press, 2005, pp 350-351.
*****************
Charlie Samuels, a Darling Downs-born professional runner, won the 1888 Botany Gift in Sydney and beat Britain's world champ Harry Hutchens over 150 yards in 14.9 seconds � a time which, it is estimated, would have won a 100m silver medal at the 1988 Olympics.

6 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:11 am

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Thanks Smokey & Iron Maiden. Samuels & Marsh would be worthy contenders for the best ProTrack Team ever. Jack Marsh especially came under consideration. But as the reports show their best running was definitely pre 1900.

Smokey deserves an upgrade for the Charles Samuel research!

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7 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:14 am

mwebster

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Not to be seen "big noting" myself, but i think that I may fall into this catagory, what do you guys think ?

8 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:34 am

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Not to sell you short Matthew,you were a better than average sprinter in fact a very good one but a little back from most of the names mentioned.Nice to see the self assurance is still there.

9 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:57 am

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Bennetto, O'Dwyer, Witnish, Richardson, Singleton all about the same as Webster and not on list. Singleton probably biggest name missing, definitely as good as some listed.

10 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:03 am

youngy

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TOP 30

Tim Banner
Frank Schulz
Tom Myles
Fred Ralph
Austin Robertson
Lynch Cooper
Tom Roberts
Arthur Martin
Frank Banner
John Stoney
Gerald Hutchinson
Terry Clarke
Ian Probert
Bill Sutton
Ken Irvine
Dave Irvine
Bill Howard
Basil Burley
David Grubb
Treva McGregor
John DeCoite
Steve Proudlock
Paul Singleton
Chris Perry
John Dinan
Shane Naylor
David Driscoll
Steve Brimacombe
Andrew McManus
Glenn Crawford

Athletes already selected in the ProTrack Team are not eligible. (ie: rules out Capobianco & Ballard)



Last edited by youngy on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total


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11 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:12 pm

Phantom

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Sam Kirsopp would have fallen into that second tier of runners also.

12 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:16 pm

Iron Maiden


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My vote goes to Brimacombe and Naylor as both were winning or very close in 120m Gifts from scratch. Both also recorded times around the 12.20's electric on grass!

Howard won Stawell back to back but he never really fulfilled his potential due to injury. (or so is reported). Maybe a runner-up in this category.

McManus was a great 'pro' sprinter but not quite as quick as Brima and Naylor from the same era.

Sutton was a strong performer from tight marks and better than most but didn't have the big victories of the others.

Driscoll and Crawford didn't seem to transfer to the amateur track with their best pro runs like Brima and Naylor did.



13 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:16 pm

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I find it extremely difficult to separate Clarke, Sutton, Brimacombe, and Dave Irvine.Clarke & Sutton consistently ran 10in or better over long periods, and all 4 were better 130/120 runners than Naylor.Sutton was named runner of the decade for the 70s in NSW.

14 Tim Banner - world's best sprinter of his era on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:35 pm

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From The Argus Thursday 1st February 1934

Tim Banner to Retire

Speaking at Kyneton on Monday, Tim Banner, the Australasian sprint champion and former world's champion said that he contemplated retirement from the sport. Banner said that he had been an active competitor at most of the carnivals held in Australia for the last 13 years. He hasd been offered a trip to Queensland in June next to defend his title of Australasian sprint champion. His opponents were to be J Mulcahy and Tom Miles, noted Queensland runners. However with the advent of the proposed championships at Maribyrnong he preferred to stay in Victoria and defend his title against allcomers. Win or lose he would say farewell to the scene of his wonderful triumphs. At his best Banner was probably the greatest handicap runner the world has ever produced. His list of victories under all conditions have never been equalled in any country. His winnings alone amount to nearly £1,500.

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15 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:51 pm

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Interesting article about R A E Gardiner - can't ignore a man who has got "straight going qualities"; one we may have missed!

From the Hobart Mercury 30th January 1928.

GARDINER'S CAREER.
BURNIE, January 23 1928.
R. A. E. Gardiner, who will represent Tasmania in the world's championships in Melbourne next month, is one of the best sprint runners that Tasmania has produced. He is a native of Ulverstone, and his father, J. W. Gardiner, was also a noted runner. Gardiner went to the mainland after winning the Ulverstone Cup in 1922, after being just defeated in the Burnie Gift. He started in the Stawell Gift and was narrowly defeated, but he won the Bendigo Gift the same year.
Gardiner, who is about 30 years of age, is a telegraph operator, and resides in Burnie. He is over six feet in height and is a fine stamp of an athlete. He is a returned soldier and it was on his return from the War that he began to make a name for himself as an athlete. He is noted for his boundless enthusiasm and
his straight going qualities.

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16 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:30 pm

Iron Maiden


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Sharkey wrote:I find it extremely difficult to separate Clarke, Sutton, Brimacombe, and Dave Irvine.Clarke & Sutton consistently ran 10in or better over long periods, and all 4 were better 130/120 runners than Naylor.Sutton was named runner of the decade for the 70s in NSW.


Sutton doesn't appear in that many record books but when you speak to many of the 60's they all say that Sutton was a pure champion. Perhaps he is worthy as a reserve. Sutton did win the 200m at Stawell from a very tight peg and was noted over the 1/4 mile.

Naylor was a 2 (or 3??) time winner of the Broadford Gift off Scr. The deck in those days was rock hard and produced some very fast times- very low 12's.

17 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:50 pm

Sharkey

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Iron Maiden wrote:
Sutton doesn't appear in that many record books but when you speak to many of the 60's they all say that Sutton was a pure champion. Perhaps he is worthy as a reserve. Sutton did win the 200m at Stawell from a very tight peg and was noted over the 1/4 mile.

It was well known that Suttons best running was in NSW and by then was the Scr man everywhere,he kept beating the best around at the time and there were some class around in NSW at the time we did not see the best of him in Vic as just before coming back done his knee playing rugby.
R.A.E.Gardiner,we have to be careful of parochial newspapers.After checking Stawell 1923 he ran 2nd in the semi to Bat Curran who won the final,Later that day won the returned soldiers 100yds,2 days later won the Bendigo gift which i assume was the Easter Fair.The main point is his mark at Stawell was 9.5 hardly putting him in this company.
Also interesting to note Terry Clarke Was the back marker at Stawell in 58,59,60,61,62 the last 3 of scr. and in his last year of running ran 3rd to Bill Howard in 66 of 4.5.

18 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:29 am

guesty

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and what about Eric Cumming? won powderhall sprint and had the trophy named after him at Stawell for best sprint performance. must have been some runner?

19 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:31 pm

youngy

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Sharkey wrote: R.A.E.Gardiner,we have to be careful of parochial newspapers.After checking Stawell 1923 he ran 2nd in the semi to Bat Curran who won the final,Later that day won the returned soldiers 100yds,2 days later won the Bendigo gift which i assume was the Easter Fair.The main point is his mark at Stawell was 9.5 hardly putting him in this company.
Also interesting to note Terry Clarke Was the back marker at Stawell in 58,59,60,61,62 the last 3 of scr. and in his last year of running ran 3rd to Bill Howard in 66 of 4.5.


Good points Sharkey, especially about Terry Clarke.

Just on the 1923 Stawell Gift - it was won by Jack Curran - a resident of Stawell.

Bat Curran (from Ascot Vale) was fourth in the 1935 Stawell Gift final, behind Mo Bishop from Port Pirie (SA). I use to see Bat around Puckle Street Moonee Ponds in the early 90's, he was good friends with Don Furness. I think he died about 10 years ago. Bat coached Ted Marantelli to win the 1949 Ballarat Gift.


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20 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:00 pm

Sharkey

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Thanks,wasn't sure whether it was Bat or not.

21 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:57 am

Harry

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Capobianco is better suited to 120m award he is the only athlete to win the grand slam. Stawell, Burnie and Bay and during times when Burnie and Bay were huge and sort after races... in the 1990's.

He was also the tightest handicapped Australian to win Stawell in the Century.

How can he not be considered?

22 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:19 am

Admin

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Harry wrote:Capobianco is better suited to 120m award he is the only athlete to win the grand slam. Stawell, Burnie and Bay and during times when Burnie and Bay were huge and sort after races... in the 1990's.

He was also the tightest handicapped Australian to win Stawell in the Century.

How can he not be considered?


Point taken but we're sticking to the rules. The 200m was selected before the 120m and Cappo was considered the best selection for 200m. Once he was locked in for the 200m category, it opened it up for the 120m for another two very worthy athletes. The depth of 120m/130yards running in Australian pro-running was incredibly strong through the 20th century and the two runners selected will be worthy choices.



Last edited by Admin on Fri May 20, 2016 8:25 am; edited 2 times in total

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23 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:07 am

Harry

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Point taken but it is a little bit silly and maybe takes away from the final team selection when the best 120m runner does not get selected for that event and yet he is selected for an event he has never competed over in the pros.

I just think the best should be selected in the event in which they were dominant in the pros, given that it is a pro team being selected.

24 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:29 pm

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AFL team of the Century had two rovers in the forward pockets, Matthews & Bunton, but Matthews was at his best on the ball or later at full forward. EJ Whitten was a gun for the Dogs anywhere especially at CHF. But the AFL put him at CHB in the team of the century.

Capo is streets ahead as 200 runner compared to others but the difference between him and other sheffield runners is not so great. He's like EJ Whitten, could play CHF or CHB or no the ball.

Capo at 200 frees up up another class athlete for the sheffield.

25 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:35 am

youngy

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TOP 20

Tim Banner
Tom Myles
Austin Robertson
Lynch Cooper
Arthur Martin
John Stoney
Gerald Hutchinson
Terry Clarke
Bill Sutton
Dave Irvine
Bill Howard
Basil Burley
Treva McGregor
John DeCoite
Steve Proudlock
Chris Perry
Shane Naylor
Steve Brimacombe
Andrew McManus
Glenn Crawford

Athletes already selected in the ProTrack Team are not eligible. (ie: rules out Capobianco & Ballard)


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26 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:13 am

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I'm sorry but AFL comparisons don't do it for me....and Leigh Matthews at least played in those positions.

My argument is simply that Capibianco is better suited to the 120m award not the 200m award. My understanding is that it is a pro award not an amateur award.

Surely we are looking for the best suited and I would also argue that as a pro the 120m award is more prestigious than the 200m award. And I do appreciate that it is just a bit of fun to select a team and Capobianco would be in the Team anyway.

But for the sack of further discussion my arguments are:
Capobianco has never competed over the 200m in the pros.
Yet he is selected as the 200m pro runner of the century.
Yet he is the best 120m runner of the century.

He won all the biggest races of his time from Scratch or close to over 120m.

He was the tightest handicapped Australian to win the Stawell Gift 120m.

No one else did that during the entire century over the 120m distance.

Ross is the only runner to exceed Capobianco's performances and he did it in the next century.

.

27 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:09 pm

youngy

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TOP 16

Tim Banner
Austin Robertson
Lynch Cooper
John Stoney
Gerald Hutchinson
Terry Clarke
Bill Sutton
Dave Irvine
Bill Howard
Treva McGregor
John DeCoite
Steve Proudlock
Chris Perry
Shane Naylor
Steve Brimacombe
Andrew McManus


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28 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:33 pm

youngy

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Harry wrote:I'm sorry but AFL comparisons don't do it for me....and Leigh Matthews at least played in those positions.

Cappo 'played in his position' as well -he has the 2nd fastest 200m in Australian history. Horses for courses.

My argument is simply that Capibianco is better suited to the 120m award not the 200m award. My understanding is that it is a pro award not an amateur award.

The 200m is rarely run these days in pro meets, so there has to be some concession to allow for that. Looking at amateur results over the distance is the only fairest way to draw a conclusion on 200m form.

Surely we are looking for the best suited and I would also argue that as a pro the 120m award is more prestigious than the 200m award. And I do appreciate that it is just a bit of fun to select a team and Capobianco would be in the Team anyway.

But for the sake of further discussion my arguments are:
Capobianco has never competed over the 200m in the pros.
Yet he is selected as the 200m pro runner of the century.
Yet he is the best 120m runner of the century.


You have decided in your own mind that Cappo is the best 120m runner of all time, but we need to consider athletes from the past who we never saw, but by all accounts were probably as good as Cappo.

He won all the biggest races of his time from Scratch or close to over 120m.

He was the tightest handicapped Australian to win the Stawell Gift 120m.

No one else did that during the entire century over the 120m distance.

Ross is the only runner to exceed Capobianco's performances and he did it in the next century.


Cappo won Stawell from 2.25m and ran 12.29s. So for argument's sake, let's say he ran 6 yards inside evens (electric). There's been plenty of Aussie athletes run at Stawell running the equivalent of 6 in or better. They unfortunately didn't have the luck of running off 2.25 and run 'only' 12.29 to win. For example, John Stoney's run in 1949 when 3rd, was about 9 yards inside evens and considered to be one of the greatest runs in pro history.

For some extraordinary reason and by a stroke of luck, Cappo only copped an 0.75m penalty for his Stawell win for the Bay Sheff and won in a photo from Shane McKenzie. How many Stawell Gift winners can go to the Bay and be only 0.75m worse off?

The Burnie win was full of merit and I agree one of the best in history.

Cappo stood out in the 200m category, but with the plethora of guns in the 120m category, I don't think anyone could say Cappo was clearly the best; there are a few with strong claims.

The thing is the 200m was considered before the 120m and Cappo is clearly the best in this category but its arguable to say he is the best in the 120m category. He's in the team, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Thanks for your input, it's interesting to see another perspective.



Last edited by youngy on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total


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29 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:03 pm

Phantom

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Can I play devil's advocate and suggest that he was lucky to be selected in any category as he served a doping suspension. From where I sit that should have ruled him out from even being considered.

30 Re: 120m/130yds Contenders on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:20 pm

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Here Here.

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