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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Gender Balance

Gender Balance

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1 Gender Balance on Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:33 am

DDog


At this time of gender equality and sexual discrimination it is time that the Stawell Athletic Club or VAL change some policy. The open Stawell gift is and has been the greatest handicapped running event on this planet. The womens Stawell Gift has only been in place for a relatively short period of time but has grown dramatically in that period. Three years ago it was decided to elevate the womens race prizemoney to the same level as the open gift. It is time now to give the womens event the same status as the open event.
On Monday the women were not introduced running down the track, instead there was a trophy presentation, This was a very ordinary decision that would not happen in the open event. The VAL has pushed womens gifts to be included at all meetings, I have witnessed near non runner introduction for womens gifts at a number of gifts this season. They have only been introduced when notified by a participating female athlete. We need to clean this up.

2 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:16 am

youngy

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Good call DDog.

I can't see any reason why the girls weren't presented down the track for the heats and semis.

In the program there's a whole page devoted to the Stawell Gift to put the names & marks in. Plenty of room for pundits like me to also write the coach's name for the open Gift.

But for the women's Gift, the program has it placed in a corner of a page, before the backmarker's invitation.

And why they are not run consecutively is baffling. These are the two biggest races on the program and for equal billing - one should follow the other.

The backmarker's invitation should be the race immediately before the two Gifts.

Stawell Athletic Club should have a look at the way the SA Athletic League treats the Women's Bay Sheffield and the Burnie AC treats the Women's Burnie Gift. For the last 20 years the women's Gift (SA & TAS), regardless of the prizemoney difference, has always been treated with the same importance as the men's gift in terms of prominence on the program.

And in terms of the 70m, the Stawell Athletic Club needs to make the Arthur Postle Handicap, a men's only race. It's preposterous, that potentially, a female could theoretically win both in the same year. Both 70's are worth the same prize-money. So they must be split into men's and women's. I believe this was proposed to the Stawell Athletic Club but was rejected. Stawell has to change it, before next year.



Last edited by youngy on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total


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3 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:17 am

Runforit


The scoreboard also only displayed the men's names only.

4 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:22 am

youngy

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Runforit wrote:The scoreboard also only displayed the men's names only.

In an ideal world it would be great to put the women's names up on the board.

But that's a problem they will always have unless they build a bigger scoreboard.

With the currrent board, there simply isn't enough time to be able to take down all the letters for the women's and replace them with the open Gift.


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5 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:25 am

youngy

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youngy wrote:
Runforit wrote:The scoreboard also only displayed the men's names only.

In an ideal world it would be great to put the women's names up on the board.

But that's a problem they will always have unless they build a bigger scoreboard.

With the currrent board, there simply isn't enough time to be able to take down all the letters for the women's and replace them with the names of the open Gift.

It's one tradition we should maintain - at least until a new board is built to accommodate the names of all women's and open finalists.


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6 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:11 pm

outtopasture


While we are at it, it if is a women's race. Then lets not allow girls to run!  Discuss at your leisure.
Obviously the handicapper has copped a beating by the use of  the benefits of  natural growth hormones for the last 3 years.
If you want a comparison,  it is equivalent to illegal doping in track, hormones are being used to improve an athletes performance.  
It is near impossible to handicap a girl of 15 or 16 in full growth unless they race consistently all season, especially closer to the big race.  Girls should not be able to  enter without consistent runs all season. Their  improvement in that age group is BIG and unquestionable. If you are injured, then a medical specialists certificate needs to be provided. (by a doctor approved by committee) If you can't provide a certificate and you haven't run and you are still a girl. Then you get 5m.
The progression from winning the Little A 100 one year to winning the gift next year should not be the norm. If it is, as over the past 3 years then why will any other Woman enter ever again.

Add to that a healthy sense of entitlement to beat the system created by the myth of pro racing and we will see a young girl win every year till this is corrected.

This was not the case prior to the equality of prize money.

Good luck to those who have won but time to level the playing field for the those who are racing without the benefit of growth hormones.

Personal PS. When the odds dropped to fav for a 16yrl old on Saturday morning. That indicated that a lot of people knew what form the girl was in. It is a bit staged don't you think? Injured a few weeks ago? it sure didn't look that way from an outsiders perspective.
Aussies are better than this. Very disappointed. If we lose the funding for this great event because sponsors don't want to be associated with this sort of nonsense, as it reflects poorly on their image, then the greedy, win at all cost approach has to change and Honesty and pride in your mark restored.
And by the way, this is no fault of a child, and each winner can hold her head high. It is the fault of the adults.  
PPS - maybe we can add this to the Australian  citizenship questions too. If we have to ask if women should be educated, perhaps we should ask if they should be treated equally at Stawell too. What would you answer? its a no brainer eh? ...and yet its 2017...



Last edited by outtopasture on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:18 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : added stuff and typo)

7 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:22 pm

Runforit


I did find it odd that the athlete and coach were quick to get the message out there about regular injuries. The conversation did feel a little staged. The bigger issue though is definitely how do we handicap these teen girls

8 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:24 pm

outtopasture


5m. done
If an Olympian off scratch cant beat a 16yr old off 11m... well it just leaves a bad taste. It means 11m is too generous for a 16yr old.



Last edited by outtopasture on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total

9 Age limit the womens Gift on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:07 pm

gofast


For the 3rd year a 15/16 year old Girl has won the WOMENS GIFT """Val are you to blind to see what is happening .
These young girls need to  be 18 to compete and must show consistent running all season .They must also be prepared for a lesson in hard handicaps .Our senior Women quite a few  of them are either Olympic ,National ,State champions its their race they are competing against there equals .That's were the excitement is, knowing one of the many women who have trained for many years such as Breen, Coates ,Blizzard etc are race ready and primed makes great racing that's what punters want to see not a  girl still in puberty,
and running off handicap of 11.How do you think Toea felt running of scratch only to be beaten by a youngster off 11 ,she wouldn't of been  pleased .To see the look of disappointment on the women after the gift was run  some wear nearly in tears that is not fair
There is a possibility these women will boycott the gifts   if this keeps happening ( TIMES MUST CHANGE AND NOW""

Men have there own gift how often if, ever do you see a 15 /16  year old win the Main Race never ( Jack Hale ran a couple of years ago he didn't win

The girls have there own Gift" that's  were they need to be earn there stripes natural progression .And then start again just like going to HIGH SCHOOL

Changes need to be made lets rename the Strickland Womens Gift  to the  Under 17 Girls Gift ,they would not be happy if the women ran in that ??? would they


That's my Rant         And I totally agree with outtopasture  WELL SAID'"

Runforit  We must be firmer ,the young ones will soon realise this is not for them.  They must wait their turn it will come but not for another 2/3 years. They will know as will there coaches, its  when they can hold their own off a reasonable  mark against there stablemates



Last edited by gofast on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling mistake)

10 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:28 pm

FortySevenThirty


It is Pretty hard for the Olympian off scratch to beat the young kid when she wasn't even good enough to make the final off her mark. If Wisil runs to her PB she wins but she didn't. Three people Ravello Ross and Breen have won off scratch in the history of the gift so history says it's a tough gig. Did anybody ark up when Dobbyn won in 2014 as a 17yo off 11.5m or is it only a problem now that the race is worth 60k ?

11 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:09 pm

samq


Easy solution to a 3 year grudge held by some. To make the Stawell Women's Gift as prestigious as the Stawell Gift drag the limit back to 10m. If this was done from the start in 2015 we wouldn't have a 15,15 & 16 yo winning the gift. Those who say some athletes can't win as they need more than 10m, go for something with a larger limit, train harder and smarter and try win off 10 when the right time comes.

12 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:46 pm

untouchables

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Blind Freddie saw that coming. watched at home. Incredible coaching performance by NESP will go down in history as one of the great’s, loved every moment of it.

13 Re: Gender Balance on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:00 pm

geton


You picked her to final untouchables so hats off to you. I also like the 10m limit idea.

14 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:51 am

outtopasture


untouchables wrote:Blind Freddie saw that coming. watched at home. Incredible coaching performance by NESP will go down in history as one of the great’s, loved every moment of it.  
Are you serious? Great coaching performance? One of the greats?
By that you endorse the use of natural growth hormone of a child, not competing all season 'due to injury', pulling an easy mark?  Any novice coach could do that!
Where's the fun in that? Where's the challenge? Where's the story? Wheré's the work, the effort, the grind, the pain.?  And it ain't aussie.  
Here on the forum many stated they would like to see the winner be an athlete who had supported the league all season, raced all over the place, put themselves out there. Got an honest mark and then performed beyond that on the day to win, that would have been great coaching in action. I'd like to see that! And the final was chokka block full of that, but they all got robbed.  And sponsors want that!
How do you think all those athletes and their coaches  feel, when they do everything right and a bandit comes in? It certainly isn't entertaining. Its not great coaching, and hopefully it only gets remembered as the last time it happened.
Bring in 10m limit and 5m for anyone who hasn't been putting themselves out in the game on show during the season.
Perhaps we should get rid of the $, and just run for the sash.
The passion and jubilance of seeing someone win an event they have trained 9 years for and win is a great sporting moment, great  entertainment, dedication, determination. I want to see more of that!

15 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:30 am

FortySevenThirty


You are full of it Outtopasture. Natural Human Growth Hormone. Yeah every coach is out to exploit that. It wouldn't even be in thought of any coach I wouldn't think. And to say she didn't run or support the circuit is a load of crap. Do you even go ??? She would have been at nearly every meeting running 300m and 400m races. Would have run more races then Coates Powell and Wells put together in the VAL. Sounds like sour grapes to me. You probably think the Kid who won doesn't train either. You'd be wrong !!

16 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:15 am

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Given that Girls physically develop earlier than boys, a 15/16-year-old Girl is the equivalent of a 18/19-year-old boy.


One ran from the limit the other close to the limit...both had established form upon which it was most likely they would improve significantly at their respective ages. One didn't run over the Gift distance all year the other ran once to get the maximum automatic lift.


The Women’s Gift was a lot closer than the Men’s Gifts.

The Men’s Gift was won in a time faster than the target times and the race was not close.

The Women’s Gift was won in a time slower than target time and the race was very close.


…. what makes it problematic is…. should a young athlete that has not competed over the Gift distance all years be given the limit…? unfortunately given what happen to Talia Martin in 2016, the system and stewarding encourages athletes to not compete. Congratulation to nesp, you can only do what you are forced to do by the system. Others also setting did not compete regularly for this reason.



What I believe is not good for the sport is that both were encouraged under the system not to run and support the sport in the Gift event across the season....although Liv did run in other events ….the best tool for handicapping is to force athletes to compete on a regular basis and penalise them, by way of a fine if they find significant improvement on their PB to win group 1 and classic races. The inconsistent running rules are ridiculous, as all athletes will be inconsistent at some time and the rules are not applied consistently and it is near impossible to do so.


We need a system that encourages regular participation.

Liv Ryan followed in Talia Martin’s footsteps. Both...won Junior Stawell Gifts both won at Maryborough over 400m etc…etc…Both supported the circuit extensively just differently.

To me the plan was obvious the only difference between the two... Talia and Liv was that Talia ran every event including non-penalty events while Liv did not run Gifts because of what happened to Talia in 2016.

But what I don’t get is why a 11.2 runner on the track cannot run 11.7 at Stawell...Wisil should have won....is the grass at Stawell really half a second slower than the mondo track??

And also, others should have won had they been at their best, you cannot expect to win a Stawell Gift if you are not at your best and the handicapper has an obligation to handicap you to run the target time assuming you are at your best.

17 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:40 am

outtopasture


Thanks for the compliment. Means I can grow a great garden Very Happy

The big picture.

Look at this way. if this trend continues, credibility is lost.
1. Athletes will not enter or will pull out of the event if someoné always dodges the system, why go if your mark is honest and others are not. Its expensive to go to Stawell at Easter! Stawell loses with accommodation and food and business this event brings. That's a big deal for a town where the mine has shut down.

2. Sponsors pull out.

Take care what you do to win its like a pebble in a pond, it has a ripple effect.
Its not ok, just because someone else did it.

Yep soft grass is very different for track runners and Stawell was soft. They get force off the ground. So Mel and Toea were always marked out of the event, and that's not fair either to have a turf mark based on tartan times.

18 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:52 am

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
The ripple effect….it attracts youth to the sport! ...they are the future....if others come to Stawell and perform to their best they beat the youth.

But I would like the system to encourage participation and established runners that support the circuit should be given their ceiling handicap to run target time.

Sponsors are currently more interested in sponsoring women than men.....why?

19 Re: Gender Balance on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:04 am

Hubbaup


Gotta agree with Fast on that one. Something like 80% Gift Participation gets you to your Ceiling for Stawell. Support the Girls who support the Circuit. I for one don't want the once a year top Ammo slinking in and stealing the prize. If I wanted to watch a top Ammo I'd go and watch Ammo's

20 Re: Gender Balance on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:54 pm

outtopasture


Sponsors are currently more interested in sponsoring women than men.....why?

[/quote]
about time! - Olympics, Rugby sevens gold, AFL womens league excelling.
But in reality, sponsors are short of dollars at the moment and choosing sponsorships carefully. Men get way more sponsorship in sport overall in Australia, its embarrassing the lack of support women get. $5000 for a 'season' in afl start up and average player in mens gets about $300,000. - that probably could cover the costs of the entire womens league.
Truly I wonder what value Aust Post got talking about equality prior to presenting the prize when the women are presented and treated as 2nd class ( as per start of this topic)
That's why the event needs to protect the reputation of the franchise so carefully and not allow it to become valueless to sponsors.
I thought the vic govt sponsor and the powernap theme for easter was a good sponsor and bang on as so many drive to this event. Good of Vic govt for supporting.
As an relative newcomer to this event, the more years I come, the more I realise how much better the handicapping needs to get if big dollars are involved. But its a difficult task if people are 'hiding' so the rules of the entering the event and what you need to compete in must change to improve the handicappers task to make it a fair and even as humanly possible.
Everyone should have a chance to finish on the line at the same time. No need for lifts etc if the entry rules were amended.

21 Re: Gender Balance on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:10 pm

DDog


I started the topic and people have gone off in all directions so I think I may go sideways a smidgin. First, what must happen is that the prizemoney no matter the pool must be equal for open and women.
Secondly, I have read all the reasons re. the winning youngsters winning the Stawell Womens but for all the differing reasons I believe the fault lies solely with the handicapper. I am in my 60's and started in the Val when 18 and until a few years ago you had to serve an apprentice before wearing a sash, only champs like Ravo, Ross, Breen and few others didn't have to of course because they were near scratch. Now the handicapping in all grades is questionable perhaps there needs to be more handicappers as it seems the workloads of the current ones is too great.

22 Re: Gender Balance on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:54 pm

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
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Is it a bad thing that a junior wins with established form...? both the past two winners have won the Junior Stawell Gift before winning the Women’s Stawell Gift...Talia Martin actually winning two of them yet suffered immensely for supporting the VAL.

This year Liv and her team, Nesp decided, if that's how you treat someone who supports the Gifts then we won't run them.... a very wise decision under the circumstances.... but she still continued to support the sport by running other events...I think that is a great result.  It could have been done better under a better system...as I think the girls need to support the Gifts...but credit to Craig for doing what he could to support the sport given the precedent set.

The sport needs more Craig Mairs introducing juniors and giving then hope and a dream.

That is a better result for the future of the VAL then someone winning who has not run in the VAL before Stawell.

Juniors now think it is possible to achieve the dream.... but if the quality runners turn up in shape they win...Liv only came 3rd in her heat....so she was beatable.

Congratulations Nesp, Craig and Liv...enjoy...but continue to support the VAL.

Next year they will try their hardest to make sure it's not a Junior....but let's hope they are fair to those that support the sport.

I differ from the Dave Culberts and believe there is little to be gain by the VAL in giving the Stawell Gift to a once a year backmarker.

With a junior winning it attracts more juniors to the VAL and that is better for the future of our sport.

23 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:03 am

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Can someone help poor old Whispers out.
Im in dispute for a SLAB
Im having a friendly wager with someone who is trying to tell me the Winner of the Womans Only 70m wins more than the Winner of the Arthur Postle.
With the history behind the Arthur Postle and Equal money for both sexes I reckon the Arthur Postle has got to be more or at worst equal and I collect.
Can someone help me out.

24 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:34 am

Downesy


Whispers wrote:Can someone help poor old Whispers out.
Im in dispute for a SLAB
Im having a friendly wager with someone who is trying to tell me the Winner of the Womans Only 70m wins more than the Winner of the Arthur Postle.
With the history behind the Arthur Postle and Equal money for both sexes I reckon the Arthur Postle has got to be more or at worst equal and I collect.
Can someone help me out.

From the Stawell program. Both total - $3000. Arthur Postle winner $900. Women's winner $1000.

25 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:18 pm

Whispers


ProTrack Star
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Thanks Downesy

Possible misprint ? Maybe
The wager was over the Winners purse so it looks like Whispers has bitten off more than he can chew and is on the cuff for a slab of Cricketers Arms. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

26 Re: Gender Balance on Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Sprinter101


The open 70m has 5 semi finals where as the womens 70m only has 3. There is more losing semi finalist to pay in the open than the womens, that's where the difference comes in.

27 Re: Gender Balance on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:55 am

Trevorpayne


gofast wrote:For the 3rd year a 15/16 year old Girl has won the WOMENS GIFT """Val are you to blind to see what is happening .
These young girls need to  be 18 to compete and must show consistent running all season .They must also be prepared for a lesson in hard handicaps .Our senior Women quite a few  of them are either Olympic ,National ,State champions its their race they are competing against there equals .That's were the excitement is, knowing one of the many women who have trained for many years such as Breen, Coates ,Blizzard etc are race ready and primed makes great racing that's what punters want to see not a  girl still in puberty,
and running off handicap of 11.How do you think Toea felt running of scratch only to be beaten by a youngster off 11 ,she wouldn't of been  pleased .To see the look of disappointment on the women after the gift was run  some wear nearly in tears that is not fair
There is a possibility these women will boycott the gifts   if this keeps happening ( TIMES MUST CHANGE AND NOW""

Men have there own gift how often if, ever do you see a 15 /16  year old win the Main Race never ( Jack Hale ran a couple of years ago he didn't win

The girls have there own Gift" that's  were they need to be earn there stripes natural progression .And then start again just like going to HIGH SCHOOL

Changes need to be made lets rename the Strickland Womens Gift  to the  Under 17 Girls Gift ,they would not be happy if the women ran in that ??? would they

Hi.
I have tried reading and understanding the posts .
My thoughts would it not be possible to recalculate the handicaps during any meet that takes place. This would then limit athletes that only turned With limited races taking everyone by surprise.
I must add I'm not against any particular age group winning if your good enough you are old enough. Regarding gender equality if you have a women's race of equal prize funds should the open be changed to male only.

That's my Rant         And I totally agree with outtopasture  WELL SAID'"

Runforit  We must be firmer ,the young ones will soon realise this is not for them.  They must wait their turn it will come but not for another 2/3 years. They will know as will there coaches, its  when they can hold their own off a reasonable  mark against there stablemates

28 Re: Gender Balance on Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:49 pm

Hey Hey

avatar
This post is directed at fast and Mr Henderson (aka hubba)
Having a go at backmarkers or so called once a year runners that you say dont deserve to right to win is ludicrous. These athletes national, state, australia representatives support the val by paying there rego , run when they can, and when not, run track and dont hide there pb's. They dont get the lifts from running each week and work there ass off to improve on the current marks they have. Alot of girls peak at 15 / 16, Development after that age takes alot of work / a good coach and dedication.
Tell me who deserves the money more (its always going to be the argument)
1. a pure val runner who runs week in week out pays there money and plays the system by entering events to hide marks. or
2. A up and coming amateur athlete who is trying to make there living as a full time athlete to make it to the biggest stage,and pay to financially support themselves to make it. we all know athletics isnt a financially rich sport,

This argument will always a difference of opinion.

These athletes both deserve the opportunity.
Liv did her job, craig did his job,
Did the handicapper and the rules, thats the arguement, and why

Because the sport is driven by $$$$$. With out it theres is no money from sponsors.
Perception has been that what has happened over the last 3 years is bad for the pro league, maybe it has, if the outside world that only watches this once a year are the ones that are putting the $$$ in then we will be in trouble,
Next year will be the real test after the guarantee $$$ have finished. Just ask Tom while so many early events where cancelled this season, and why didn't we have a main sponsor for the men at stawell, it wasnt through lack of trying.
Lets hope it does not hurt the val.

My Two Cents.

29 Re: Gender Balance on Mon May 01, 2017 7:32 am

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
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I have no problem with backmarker winning ...I was one - having run in 15 Stawell Gifts from behind 5m, I’m very sympathetic to backmarkers.

My argument is backmarkers can also support the sport...this year and last year had the backmarkers turned up in their best form, and ran to near their best they would have won.

I want to see these backmarkers supporting the sport not just come in once a year and take the prize. There is no reason for backmarkers not to support the circuit...not every week but a least a few times a season.

The once a year backmarkers were actually handicapped better than most regular established runners this year, so the handicapper tried his hardest to get them across the line, he also lifted other back markers for running PB’s.

I don't think it is a bad result having a young runner win...you have to remember both the past two women Stawell winner had Stawell winning form before winning the big one. They both had won the junior Stawell Gift, Talia Martin actually winning two and being the first runner in 100 years to have won two Stawell sashes before winning the Gift...they had the performances on the board.

I'm no having a go at once a year backmarkers just prefer someone who supports the sport to win.

There is also more than Stawell to win for the amateur to pay their way. They just need to support the sport to find out.

The once a year backmarkers this year were given every chance to win and more chance than many established athletes who competed regularly on the circuit.

Should a once a year backmarker be given more chance to win than quality established athletes that support the sport on regular basis? I think not.

These once year backmarkers can choose to no longer be a once a year supporter and compete in the VAL on a more regular basis....it is their choice but in no way do they deserve to win more than someone who supports the VAL and professional running.

A backmarker who supports the VAL or their homes state leagues would be my prefer winner.

30 Re: Gender Balance on Mon May 01, 2017 7:48 am

Discobull

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i hope your referring to wisil, fast.
i can assure you my athlete who was the backmarker in the final, has supported the val every year, run plenty of races and paid her dues.
To say otherwise would be a blatant lie, and if referring to wisil, pretty sure she has run plenty of pro events in Queensland as well.

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