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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Wangaratta Masters Fiasco

Wangaratta Masters Fiasco

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1 Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:24 am

DDog


Handicapping anything is difficult but some of the errors made in the VAL this year border on ridiculous. The Geordie Hore male/female Shambles at Northcote, the Elle Graf blunder at Daylesford are just a few of the disasters. Then at Wangaratta a newcomer Jonathon Stefaniak from Canberra cruises down the track to blitz the masters/women double. Granted it is difficult to mark interstaters but Johnathon had saluted at Merimbula off 6m on January 7th. How could he then be allocated 8m at Wangaratta. Doesn't the handicapper receive interstate results? A face/slap for all those master/women athletes that compete week in week out.

2 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:05 am

Kangaroota

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3 words. Handicap Review Panel.
They are in place as a safeguard to stop this type of mistake. The handicappers have a lot on their plate with many meets to handicap in a short space of time. The HRP must be of better support to them. As the sport is no longer looking after the majority of athletes, is it time for VRTA to supply 1 person to HRP?

With the Wang fiasco. The novice veteran handicap in a vets 120m is 5m for a novice veteran athlete. The guy that won Wang has made the final of an ACT 100m championship. He is no novice. Same with some other very well credentialled athletes who got allocated more than 5m. If they are not novice then handicap them behind novice.

Hopefully no mistakes to spoil our Ballarat gift this weekend.

3 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:05 pm

cantrun


Destroyed the field, and will only come back 1.25 as the maximum.

4 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:13 pm

Kangaroota

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He is OGA so can come back any amount. He must be pulled for the Merimbula win off 6m plus work out his 100m p.b. from when he was younger. It may turn out he is better than a novice veteran and at age 36 should be handicapped between scr and 5m if that is the case.
My spies that were there on the day tell me he ran in synthetic track spikes (5-7mm) so has plenty of improvement left. Then again a 300m vets finalist at Maryborough ran in long distance runners so looks like there are no rules any more.

5 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:04 pm

BMara


Kangaroota wrote:He is OGA so can come back any amount. He must be pulled for the Merimbula win off 6m plus work out his 100m p.b. from when he was younger. It may turn out he is better than a novice veteran and at age 36 should be handicapped between scr and 5m if that is the case.
My spies that were there on the day tell me he ran in synthetic track spikes (5-7mm) so has plenty of improvement left. Then again a 300m vets finalist at Maryborough ran in long distance runners so looks like there are no rules any more.

DDog Stefaniak isn't a newcomer, ran at Easter in the masters 100m off 6.75 ( 8m in 120m). The win at Merimbula off 6m was in a combined women's event.
Clearly he has improved.

Mr Roota, not sure but don't seem to have found a rule that states that an athlete can not run in flats.However there is a rule (11.5) " An athlete may apply to stewards for permission to compete in bare feet and /or approved footwear etc etc etc.

HRP 4 words (put your hand up) ....in my experience the Monday VAL handicappers have the best record in any sport in the world

Aside from that, I've always wondered ...when a kangaroo is in the set position, would you recommend the macropods( large feet ) or the paws to launch your mighty burst of speed.

Cantran... OGA

6 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:43 pm

DDog


Always great to get some clarification on details Mara. It is gratifying that the chief steward puts his body on the line and at least corresponds via the forum. I contacted the handicappers last week about two separate issues and am yet to receive a reply. That is disappointing. In regard to the Merimbula result, wouldn't a women/masters with young women event be harder to win than all masters event. To go out 2m on that is incredible. Does anybody win an event in the VAL and get a 2m lift. I also hope the runner we are talking about got a NAP at Stawell. He went from 11.1 in heat to 11.7 in semi.

7 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:34 pm

BMara


DDog wrote:Always great to get some clarification on details Mara. It is gratifying that the chief steward puts his body on the line and at least corresponds via the forum. I contacted the handicappers last week about two separate issues and am yet to receive a reply. That is disappointing.  In regard to the Merimbula result, wouldn't a women/masters with young women event be harder to win than all masters event. To go out 2m on that is incredible. Does anybody win an event in the VAL and get a 2m lift. I also hope the runner we are talking about got a NAP at Stawell. He went from 11.1 in heat to 11.7 in semi.

I would rather use the VAL handicaps and penalties as a guide rather than interstate marks. Stefaniak's last handicap in a vets race was 6.75m at Stawell (8m in the 120m.) Merimula aside, I think he is entitled to run off that handicap of 8m if he goes straight from Stawell to Wang. I'm guessing ( and I don't know) that first prize at Merimbula would have been $200 to $250, and the race may have had 2,maybe 3 heats.) To be fair it would have been hard to "drag" him anymore that the minimum penalty for his win, which is .25m for a race worth $750 or less. I really don't think the result is a fiasco, maybe a hiccup or oversight.

PS 11.26 in his heat to 11.73 in the semi, is an automatic timed NAP..........Think he must have run in the beer mile in between events

8 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:10 pm

Downesy


BMara wrote:
DDog wrote:Always great to get some clarification on details Mara. It is gratifying that the chief steward puts his body on the line and at least corresponds via the forum. I contacted the handicappers last week about two separate issues and am yet to receive a reply. That is disappointing.  In regard to the Merimbula result, wouldn't a women/masters with young women event be harder to win than all masters event. To go out 2m on that is incredible. Does anybody win an event in the VAL and get a 2m lift. I also hope the runner we are talking about got a NAP at Stawell. He went from 11.1 in heat to 11.7 in semi.

I would rather use the VAL handicaps and penalties as a guide rather than interstate marks. Stefaniak's last handicap in a vets race was 6.75m at Stawell (8m in the 120m.) Merimula aside, I think he is entitled to run off that handicap of 8m if he goes straight from Stawell to Wang. I'm guessing ( and I don't know) that first prize at Merimbula would have been $200 to $250, and the race may have had 2,maybe 3 heats.) To be fair it would have been hard to "drag" him anymore that the minimum penalty for his win, which is .25m for a race worth $750 or less. I really don't think the result is a fiasco, maybe a hiccup or oversight.

PS 11.26 in his heat to 11.73 in the semi,  is an automatic timed NAP..........Think he must have run in the beer mile in between events

I don't think anyone in that final was upset about it. He was just too good. We were all 36 once....

9 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:18 am

Kangaroota

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As a Monday handicapper I think the novice veteran mark is given far too easily across all distances. Decent 36 year olds do not get 3m in front of novice. Yes the guy is entitled to improve from last year but should he have had 8m in the first place? Should he have even had 5m which is the novice veteran handicap. He is a state 100m finalist in 2000 and is in the young bracket of veterans. A state finalist is not a novice and when they turn 35 they should be given less than the novice mark. For example. Cam Dunbar was given scratch when he became a vet and as good a pro runner as he has been he was no state finalist. Darren Whittaker has 4m and again he is no state finalist. POD at about ½ a century old had 5m last year. I see others in front of novice that are very dangerous for their quality. The question becomes “what is a novice”.

BMara. Thankyou for the rule clarification with athletes running in flats or short spikes. All that is needed for transparency is to put this in the stewards report that they sought permission and were granted there wish. Running in this type of footwear indicates an injury or some other issue. The athlete that made the final in flats at Maryborough received a handicap lift at his next start. How can you be lifted when running in flats? If it was in the stewards report the handicapper would have been alerted. Look out when he dons the spikes. Look out when Stefaniak puts in grass spikes.

We are just hoping this is the last of the mistakes and Ballarat is fair for all.

10 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:07 am

Mushroom


I am curious Kanga, Stefaniak looked very very good on the weekend. When he puts his grass spikes on how much quicker do you think he will get ?

At 36 obviously still excellent for his age, and was impressed with how smooth he moved over the ground.

11 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:23 am

Kangaroota

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Difficult to say as I have not seen what type of runner he is. Smooth/top of the ground type or power? Not sure of benefit in 400 or above but certainly great benefit over 120m. My points above whilst specific to highlight issues were general comments around athlete disclosure (running in flats, short spikes, personal best times), VAL transparency (displaying athlete disclosure in stewards report helps transparency and stops the sport whispering) and novice handicaps (which should be for genuine novice athletes).
Athletes in flats and short spikes will improve when donning the proper shoes. This is common knowledge.

12 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:34 am

Mushroom


In my opinion he was fairly light framed for a sprinter as such and looked suited to the longer distance were he had a good change of speed. His 300M being tighter than his 120M would probably suggest that.

I hope it is not the last we see of him this year, be interesting to see him really tested.

13 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:16 pm

OldandSlow


Would have been interesting to see him line up at Ballarat after his pulled as there are a few in the masters 120m this week across a range of marks that could push him. I'm guessing his Wang run has been the fastest 120m vets run of the season (?) so it would take a big effort from someone to hit the line in front.

Overall though, great to see the big number of vets entered in vets events for Ballarat. Looking at the back markers alone with Tancredi, Dunbar, Angelakos, Phelan and Whittaker all signed up for the 120 Masters it should be good to see if any of them can run down the other great list of names in front of them.

I'm hoping Stefaniak gets a late entry and adds a bit more excitement to the day or maybe we only see him again on April 15th.

Good luck to all!

14 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:36 pm

BMara


The athlete that made the final in flats at Maryborough received a handicap lift at his next start. How can you be lifted when running in flats? If it was in the stewards report the handicapper would have been alerted. Look out when he dons the spikes. Look out when Stefaniak puts in grass spikes.

We are just hoping this is the last of the mistakes and Ballarat is fair for all.



Looking forward to Ballarat and implementing your theory,
Runners line up whilst we measure your pin size.
5m pin people; your line starts at Ballan
10m pin people; Your line starts at Gordon
15m pin people; your line starts Town Hall
Sweeney people; go straight to gift final
Flat shoe people: go to eternal damnation

Believe it or not some runners, especially those with a bit of age and wear on their achilles, can't handle long spikes anymore.

15 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:51 pm

Phantom

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ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
What's your preference Mara? I have you pegged for a pair of quality loafers, maybe a smart pair of Julius Marlows or a relaxed boat shoe. Definitely not a high tops type of guy!

16 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:02 pm

BMara


Phantom wrote:What's your preference Mara?  I have you pegged for a pair of quality loafers, maybe a smart pair of Julius Marlows or a relaxed boat shoe. Definitely not a high tops type of guy!

Phantom, anything but thongs.

As the saying goes "before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes" and then they're too far away to hear.


17 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:50 pm

Mushroom


[quote="BMara"]
Phantom wrote:What's your preference Mara?  I have you pegged for a pair of quality loafers, maybe a smart pair of Julius Marlows or a relaxed boat shoe. Definitely not a high tops type of guy!

Phantom, anything but thongs.

As the saying goes "before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes" and then they're too far away to hear.


"Nice one Centurion" Like it ;-)

18 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:56 am

BMara


Mushroom wrote:
BMara wrote:
Phantom wrote:What's your preference Mara?  I have you pegged for a pair of quality loafers, maybe a smart pair of Julius Marlows or a relaxed boat shoe. Definitely not a high tops type of guy!

Phantom, anything but thongs.

As the saying goes "before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes" and then they're too far away to hear.


"Nice one Centurion" Like it ;-)


Mushroom or whilst in the zone (bisporus brunnescens), right on the ball,

19 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:47 am

Kangaroota

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I am just a simple country boy but thought this was discussion not criticism. Ie/ assistance to the handicappers plus transparency and disclosure. We all want what is best for the sport.
Tongue in cheek and smart arse replies aside, transparency is all that is required. If athletes see a runner pass them in a sprint race in flats then that runner gets a lift it can be hard to swallow. If the reason for wearing different footwear is disclosed then it appeases the masses. So long as the flats runner does not come out in spikes when the big races are on. Same for the short spikes runner. Hope the 18mm don’t come out for the big races.

20 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:03 am

Kangaroota

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On 2nd thoughts I was critical. Of the HRP process. Or what I believe the HRP process should be. Not critical of any individuals on the HRP as I do not know who they are.

21 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:07 am

Trackstar

avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Kangaroota wrote:I am just a simple country boy but thought this was discussion not criticism. Ie/ assistance to the handicappers plus transparency and disclosure. We all want what is best for the sport.
Tongue in cheek and smart arse replies aside, transparency is all that is required. If athletes see a runner pass them in a sprint race in flats then that runner gets a lift it can be hard to swallow. If the reason for wearing different footwear is disclosed then it appeases the masses. So long as the flats runner does not come out in spikes when the big races are on. Same for the short spikes runner. Hope the 18mm don’t come out for the big races.

Kangaroota you really overestimate the improvement from wearing longer grass spikes for vet athletes. The longer spikes the better for the really, really fast guys. Plodders don't get the same traction that the elite guys get. Hardly make a difference for vet athletes. Vet athletes don't exert the same power from the track. And the Wang track was in good condition. Didn't make any difference to the Masters winner. He would have run the same time if he had 6mm or 18mm.  

Agree anyone wearing flats in a race up to 400m is not serious about winning. (Older vets in 800s can get away with flats depending on the track...) That's a different argument.

22 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:43 am

Kangaroota

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Good summary Trackstar. It is good to get varied opinions.

23 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:00 pm

untouchables

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In fairness to the handicapper the job is a very difficult one with so many events he has to assess. Maybe he needs more than two or three stewards to help him because some coaches and athletes don't help him by their actions on the track and he is a very nice guy he only tries to help the sport.

24 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:09 pm

BMara


Kangaroota wrote:I am just a simple country boy but thought this was discussion not criticism. Ie/ assistance to the handicappers plus transparency and disclosure. We all want what is best for the sport.
Tongue in cheek and smart arse replies aside, transparency is all that is required. If athletes see a runner pass them in a sprint race in flats then that runner gets a lift it can be hard to swallow. If the reason for wearing different footwear is disclosed then it appeases the masses. So long as the flats runner does not come out in spikes when the big races are on. Same for the short spikes runner. Hope the 18mm don’t come out for the big races.

Hello Kangaroota
I was a little bemused by your reply "Tongue in cheek and smart arse replies aside" . I assume you're referring to my latest couple of post.
Do you ever have a little look at your own " Pen name". It's hard to take seriously someone who has a fetish for marsupials, and giant ones at that. I would have thought that by your name you were taking the "piss" out of everyone on the forum, and not expecting to be taken seriously.

25 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:13 pm

Mex

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Moderator
Moderator
I was planning on staying out of this one but I have to agree that there have been what I would call a few interesting handicaps this season. The one from the weekend does require some sort of explanation as it cost two Masters athletes a win in Boyle and Armstrong. I always wait for the stewards report before making any judgment but this one was not addressed there.

Handicapping should be easy to interpret. The system gives you a rate per metre and that is used to equate a starting handicap. If the athlete is new there is a novice mark that they should be given. If the athlete has history either within the pro ranks or a pb in the other format then that is taken in to account in deciding the handicap. Athletes can start behind the novice mark in this case. There should be no athlete that starts in front of the novice mark regardless of prior results if we are talking about the Masters handicaps. They need to earn their stripes. The system allows them to be lifted relatively quickly but that is after competing.

Good luck to Stefaniak, he ran off what he was given. No one is arguing about that from what I am reading unless he did in fact using some form of footing to slow himself down which I do not know the answer too. I think what people want to see Mara is that there is reference to these issues in the stewards report that say 'Athlete {insert name} was spoken to regarding their performance. They were informed it was not good enough and resulted in an NAP. Their excuse was not accepted" Why are we accepting athletes excuses for poor performances when we are supposed to compete to the best of our ability each week? If we have this kind of transparency then the keyboard warriors such as myself will have nothing to do so may focus on the running. The Handicap Review Panel should pick up these errors in my view.

No attack towards anyone here.

How good is Ballarat going to be?

26 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:42 am

Kangaroota

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Yes BMara. Kanga found your latest footwear and spike length posts quite amusing. I got a bit serious on the issue but I now see it is a non issue.
My spies will still keep an eye out on the footwear at Ballarat for me. I’ll check the footwear while at Nitro.
After inspection of the ground at Steampacket you’ll need the long ones in later this month.

27 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:56 am

Kangaroota

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By they way, the heat you turned on at St Albans to Coates, Rizzo and the POD squad was great to see. More of this required. It gives us a feeling that race day is being governed and that rules do apply.

28 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:02 am

Thatsthestats


Kangaroota wrote:By they way, the heat you turned on at St Albans to Coates, Rizzo and the POD squad was great to see. More of this required. It gives us a feeling that race day is being governed and that rules do apply.

How did Rizzo cop heat at St Albans when he didn't run Kanga ?

29 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:10 am

Kangaroota

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Spies tell me he was indirectly suggested/warned not to run in gift. Unsatisfactory performance = loss of Stawell lift. Heat was on after Maryborough performance.
If true this is good stewarding.

30 Re: Wangaratta Masters Fiasco on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:23 am

Thatsthestats


Kangaroota wrote:Spies tell me he was indirectly suggested/warned not to run in gift. Unsatisfactory performance = loss of Stawell lift.  Heat was on after Maryborough performance.
If true this is good stewarding.

Oh ok then. It's good to know they are doing their job. They certainly made a statement with Domaschenz that's for sure. Coates was very lucky not to go down the same road. Those poor punters that took the $1.40 on her. Odds on look on I suppose

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