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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Is Tailia Martin the only runner to win at Stawell twice before go on to win a Stawell Gift?

Is Tailia Martin the only runner to win at Stawell twice before go on to win a Stawell Gift?

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Fast


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Stawell Gift quiz question. How good is your Stawell Gift knowledge?

How many Stawell Gift Winners or Women's Stawell Gift Winners have won two or more races (Stawell sashes) before going on to win a Stawell Gift?

We know that Talia Martin won two Junior Women’s Stawell Gifts in 2014 and 2015 before going on to win this year’s Women’s Stawell Gift, but how many others are there?

We know a few have won the Bill Howard before going on to win Stawell Gifts in later years?

There have been three dual Stawell Gift Winners (Howard, Foley, Ross). Did any of these 3 win another race at Stawell before winning their second Stawell Gift?

SANCHEZ


Josh Ross won the 70m the year before winning his first Stawell Gift, so therefore his second gift win was his third Stawell sash.

youngy

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There's been several Stawell Gift winners win 3 or more sashes.

Pretty sure only one athlete has won a Stawell Gift after winning 2 previous Stawell races.

C "Sam" Cassidy won two sashes prior to winning the Stawell Gift. Cassidy won the 220 yards in 1913 and 1914 before winning the 1916 Stawell Gift.

Stawell Athletic Club Hall of Fame members Darcy Devine and Len Sprague won four Stawell sashes.

Devine -
1911 Stawell Gift
1911 130yds Encourage Handicap
1912 440yds
1914 75yds

Sprague -
1939 Stawell Gift
1939 75yds
1941 220yds (off scratch in 21.1)
1946 220yds (off scratch in 20.8.)

Personally I do not put the Women's 120m at Stawell in the same category as the Stawell Gift. To me it is like comparing the Melbourne Cup to the Oaks Stakes.

To elevate the Women's 120m to the level of the Stawell Gift is the worst knee-jerk decision I've seen in 35 years of being involved in the sport.

There should have been far more 'intelligence' put into the decision to lift the prize-money to the same level than it appears to have been done.

In my view there should have been a long term plan in place to ensure the women's standard is equal to that of the OPEN Stawell Gift before lifting the money to the same level.

A $40,000 first prize for a race with a 14m limit is just ridiculous.

It took 119 years before we saw a 16yo win the Stawell Gift when Jarrem Pearce won off a respectable 8.0m in 2000. Yet as soon as the prize-money went up for the women's we've seen the first two 40 grand cheques handed to 15 year olds.

It should have been a 6 to 10 year plan whereby each year the limit is reduced while the prize-money goes up. When the limit comes back to 10m, then the prize-money should be the same.

Notwithstanding, Talia Martin ran brilliantly. In my opinion there were several (older & more experienced) athletes handicapped close enough to Talia who should have performed better than they did. Had they run up to their potential/capacity, it may have turned out differently and all the controversy, avoided.

The other element of equalising the prize-money is the flow on effect to other events such as the 70m and 3200m. The prize-money for these races are a disgrace given the entry money athletes have to pay.

In the 70m, 227 athletes paid $40 each. A total of $9,080 collected in nomination money. Yet the prize-money paid out added up to $1,830. How the Stawell Athletic Club thinks this is OK has got me baffled. It is ripping the athletes off and in any other meeting it would not be tolerated.

And what other carnival pays the athletes 4 weeks after the meeting? For any prize-money of $3,000 or less, the athletes should be able to collect it on the weekend. Only the place-getters in the Gift and maybe the winner of the backmarkers ($4500) should have to wait for their cheques.

But this is Stawell and we just have to put up with it.  Laughing


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

samq


Youngy,

This is one of the best posts you have written.

To ensure the intergity of the Women's Stawell Gift the limit has to be reduced to the same limit as the men's.
Otherwise it really set's a precedence for runners in the female's gift to "play the game" and get as close as they can to the limit. Bringing the limit back to 10m ensures the winner goes to someone who can run fast.

cantrun


I agree with most of those points Paul... although from all reports, it won't be an issue in 2018. I believe the current sponsor has responded with an " highly unlikely " to putting up $40k to see that happen again..... personally I'm against the " win at all cost" mentality of some coaches/athletes. Just ruins the game for everyone.
Stawell athletic club should be questioned as to how they justify the prize money allocation. How is it that 12 y/o kids can earn $400 winning a race there and the veterans 300 winner less than that? 11 heats of 10 and they run for peanuts??? Bloody joke.

Downesy


cantrun wrote:I agree with most of those points Paul... although from all reports, it won't be an issue in 2018. I believe the current sponsor has responded with an " highly unlikely " to putting up $40k to see that happen again..... personally I'm against the " win at all cost" mentality of some coaches/athletes. Just ruins the game for everyone.
Stawell athletic club should be questioned as to how they justify the prize money allocation. How is it that 12 y/o kids can earn $400 winning a race there and the veterans 300 winner less than that? 11 heats of 10 and they run for peanuts???  Bloody joke.

I'm all for Little A's, but this example of prize money allocation does seem a bit silly.

SANCHEZ


Agree with everything you have said Youngy in regards to the Women's Gift prizemoney and the prizemoney for the other events. What really annoys me is the calling of the Women's winner the Stawell gift winner. The women win the "Stawell Women's Gift", not the "Stawell Gift" . There is only one Stawell Gift winner every year, and this year it was Isaac Dunmall. I also shudder to think what will happen in a couple of years when Australia Post pull out of the Women's race sponsorship. Will Stawell feel obligated to maintain the Women's race prizemoney parity and then reduce the Stawell Gift prizemoney when they can't find a new sponsor? This will result in the Stawell gift being worth less than it was 20 years ago, as was the case with Ballarat this year when it was run for its lowest prizemoney

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
That is such a sexist comment..

quite unbelievable in 2016. The women train just as hard. Really...

SANCHEZ


It has nothing to do with sexism. There is only one Stawell gift run every year. The same as there is only one Melbourne Cup run. The other races have other names. Even the Stawell A.C refer to it as the "Stawell Women's Gift" . This is what it should be referred to.

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
The correct reference is...

the Men's Stawell gift and

the Women's Stawell gift..

the Melbourne cup is a ridiculous comparison horses are not humans.

SANCHEZ


Still don't agree. The Stawell Gift has never in its history been referred to as the Men's Stawell Gift. It is only the "Stawell Gift" and it has had women enter and run in it over time. The women's race has never been called the Stawell Gift until until this year, incorrectly in my opinion, by sections of the media. Sorry but you do not have 2 Stawell Gifts run in the same year. It is just PC gone mad. Celebrate the Women's Race for the race it is, don't call it something that it isn't.

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Amazing....if women were to be completive in the Stawell gift what limit would you recommend.

Would you put ladies into a boxing ring with men?

youngy

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One massive flaw in your argument FAST, there is no men's only Stawell Gift. It is an open race to anyone of either sex who wants to enter. The only barrier is the handicap.

And I have no problem with parity but parity must also mean the same limit which would imply the same standard. A 40% greater limit implies the depth is inferior.

The vet's race is one I overlooked. I agree - the prize-money for the Vet's 300m was very ordinary given the numbers entered.



_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

Whispers


ProTrack Star
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Downesy wrote:
cantrun wrote:I agree with most of those points Paul... although from all reports, it won't be an issue in 2018. I believe the current sponsor has responded with an " highly unlikely " to putting up $40k to see that happen again..... personally I'm against the " win at all cost" mentality of some coaches/athletes. Just ruins the game for everyone.
Stawell athletic club should be questioned as to how they justify the prize money allocation. How is it that 12 y/o kids can earn $400 winning a race there and the veterans 300 winner less than that? 11 heats of 10 and they run for peanuts???  Bloody joke.
I'm all for Little A's, but this example of prize money allocation does seem a bit silly.


I think its becoming very sad for athletics. This wasnt a conversation I heard at Stawell but at a meeting leading up to Stawell.
I was in earshot of a family group and the young athlete was asked why he didnt run at the State Championships and the answer was .......I didnt want to damage my mark for Stawell.
I just think its very very sad for athletics when this is happening and my guess is it would not be an isolated case.

Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
youngy wrote:One massive flaw in your argument FAST, there is no men's only Stawell Gift. It is an open race to anyone of either sex who wants to enter. The only barrier is the handicap.

And I have no problem with parity but parity must also mean the same limit which would imply the same standard. A 50% greater limit implies the depth is inferior.

The vet's race is one I overlooked. I agree - the prize-money for the Vet's 300m was very ordinary given the numbers entered.





I have no desire to convince people that the Stawell gift is a men’s race only ….an open race where only men are competitive is effectively a men’s race. I am totally aware girls can enter ….but why would they?  It is only an open race in name. Has a woman ever made the final or won the Open Stawell gift? I appreciate the history as the Women’s Stawell Gift has only been around since 1990. But I think it’s time to move on and refer to them as the Men’s and Women’s Stawell Gift.


However on to the more important issue I agree with you Youngy, the 14m limit in this year’s Women's gift was not necessary, and it was not necessary to lift the field 1.5m and Exum 1.75m...the whole field should have been back 1.5 and the limit 11m or 12m...that however is a handicapping issue.

Would the result have been different? -well who knows ….run the Women’s Stawell Gift again and you could get a different result.

Let’s just say it will never be 14m again no one likes to see a frontmarker win! …As we saw this year.

We were only expecting a 12m limit this year, as most in the field were lifted 3m last year which was ridiculous. If Breen can win from Scratch without lifting the field then she very much deserves to ….others just need to improve.

Baltimore Jack


FAST: No desire to convince people that the Stawell Gift is a men's only race?

That's good because you won't. Not while females still can enter.

Kangaroota

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In recent years Wangaratta had a mens only 400m. After being threatened with an Equal Opportunity law suit they allowed females to enter.

Slowcoach


Let's be realistic here, the Stawell Open Gift is for men. Okay women can enter, but we all know they don't have an equal chance. The Australian record holder couldn't even get past the heats! If you really only want there to be one Stawell gift, with both sexes having equal chance to win, the limit would need to be 20m. I don't think anyone wants that. So for equal opportunity, that leaves us with the the Stawell Women's gift and the Stawell Men's gift, pretty simple really.

airtight

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Slowcoach wrote:Let's be realistic here, the Stawell Open Gift is for men. Okay women can enter, but we all know they don't have an equal chance. The Australian record holder couldn't even get past the heats! If you really only want there to be one Stawell gift, with both sexes having equal chance to win, the limit would need to be 20m. I don't think anyone wants that. So for equal opportunity, that leaves us with the the Stawell Women's gift and the Stawell Men's gift, pretty simple really.

You saying an athlete with a PB of 11.11 is not capable of getting past the heats, off 10 metres? Absolute crap.
Plenty of athletes off 10m who can't run 11.11, can still make the semis. Just have to turn up in 11.11 shape.

Slowcoach


11.11 at Canberra equates to probably 11.50 on grass, uphill at Stawell. You're not going to progress far running 12.70 in a Stawell "open" gift. So even if the fastest female Australia has produced, on a good day, can sneak through to the Semi's. Are you saying 'Airtight' thats fair? That the 'open' gift gives both sexes an equal chance? You have got to be joking

jknott123


while we are talking prizemoney the sprint races are worth, what about the poor old distance runner.in 1987 the frontmarkers mile was $900 first prize,in 2016 the frontmarkers mile was worth $900.no change in nearly 30 years

airtight

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The women's race being the same prizemoney as the REAL Stawell Gift has nearly stuffed the Stawell Gift as an event. This year it became a circus. This is political correctness stuffed up. For over 130 years we've gone to Stawell for one reason. The Stawell Gift. Every other race is a support event.
I agree prize/money is pathetic for other races. but the one that is out of proportion is the Womens 120m. Too much money offered for the standard. When the standard is the equal of the REAL Stawell Gift, then the money could be the same.
Women want equal prizemoney then run in the main Gift and take your chances.
If you aren't up to the standard then stick to the chick's race.
IMHO the 200m should be worth more than the Women's Gift. its got more entries, women are competitive with the men and the standard is much better. more exciting to watch. great to see the girl who won this year. she deserved more money because she beat more athletes.

Stawell should put the women's race on Sunday. Then check the crowd.
You know what? We got bigger crowds when the Womens race was 100m.

Slowcoach


Airtight, if people like you were still running the country, women still wouldn't be allowed to vote. Your comments are so sexist it is embarrassing. I am not arguing about the prize money, ultimately it is the sponsors who decide that (Aust Post requested their money go to the women's gift), but you cannot put up barriers to prevent women from receiving Stawell gift accolades. Why would you? From my position there has been more talk about Stawell over the past two years than there has been for a long time. Participation from juniors (especially girls) is increasing rapidly in Victoria. The decision to recognise women's racing and to increase women's prize money has had a major influence on this. Your comment regarding the 200m is confusing. You said the races were exciting because the women were competitive. That is because the limit is 30m!! I think everyone would be better off embracing the fact that there are now two Stawell gift winners. Twice the publicity, twice the excitement, twice as many people following the sport.

airtight

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Not sexist at all. pragmatic, realistic, common sense.
According to your argument the Women's AFL players when the comp starts should instantly be earning the same as AFL men. Just a dumb argument.
There will only ever be one Stawell Gift. When the standard of the womens 120m is on par with the REAL Stawell Gift you might, I said might, have an argument.
It's stupid we celebrate a girl who wouldn't win the REAL Stawell Gift off 25 metres.
Excellent she's 15 BUT she won because of a very big mark and ordinary standard behind her.


Fast


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
airtight wrote:Not sexist at all. pragmatic, realistic, common sense.
According to your argument the Women's AFL players when the comp starts should instantly be earning the same as AFL men. Just a dumb argument.  
There will only ever be one Stawell Gift. When the standard of the womens 120m is on par with the REAL Stawell Gift you might, I said might, have an argument.
It's stupid we celebrate a girl who wouldn't win the REAL Stawell Gift off 25 metres.
Excellent she's 15 BUT she won because of a very big mark and ordinary standard behind her.




Your argument is flawed on several main points, while the Women’s standard is not quite at the Men’ standard it is not as far of as you are suggesting and the gap is closing. By making the gifts parity that gap will continue to close.

The Open Men’s Stawell Gift has been in decline since 1990 when the Women’s Stawell Gift was introduced.  There were 160 entries in the Men’s gift this year there were many more in 1990. While 120 entries in the Women’s Gift.

There are still quite a number of men on 10m who are not competitive.  There were 25 runners handicapped on 10m at Stawell this year…how many were competitive? To make the Stawell Gift final from 10m you have to be an 11sec 100m runner….how many sub 11 sec runners does Australia have to be reasonably completive say 11.20 sec. The equivalent for women would be 12.5sec for 100m.

The Women’s Stawell has grown since 1990 and if the handicapping was better and transparent there would be a lot more depth.

The problem is not necessary the depth of female runners but how they are handicapped. It was not necessary or even required this year to have a 14m limit the field should have been back at least 1.5 to 2m. With a limit of 12m. Not the same as the men but the gap is closing.

Talia Martin ran the entire season from 11.5m but was lifted to 13m for Stawell.

With a 12m limit in the Women’s Stawell Gift you could accommodate competitively any girl cable of running 12.70 sec that is based on the assumption that the best runner in the field can run 11.40 sec and the race is handicapped to be run in 13.70sec.  Breen would struggle to do that at her very best.

There are lots and lots of girls and ladies out there capable of or with PB’s better than 12.70sec.

Slowcoach


Airtight, you need to read correctly. At no stage have I discussed prizemoney. What I am saying is there should be equal recognition for both the Men and Women’s Gifts. The depth of women's running may not be quite as that of the men’s, but it is not far off. Giving recognition to the Women’s gift will help this continue to develop. Over time the participation rates will increase and the sport will grow. Don’t we all want the sport to grow? Will it help by not equally recognising the women’s events?........I don’t think so. Other sports are now embracing women’s participation. Pro running has been proactive on this issue and hopefully we have a head start on the others. We don’t need short sighted views like your own dragging us back to the ‘old days’.

Your continual comparisons of women’s ability to compete at the level of the men’s just shows your biased slant on this argument. Women will never be as strong or as fast as a male, but they train and compete just as hard, and their races are just as exciting to watch.

One final word on your comment about the 'Ordinary standard of the Womens gift'. In 2015 there were 4 women who competed in the finals of the 100m and 200m at Nationals and then competed in the Stawell womens gift. Breen, Nelson, Brennen and Graf.........For the men there was 1, Stevens.... ..which event would you say had better standard??



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