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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Stawell Handicap head scratchers

Stawell Handicap head scratchers

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1 Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:52 pm

The Judge


A thread to share some strange handicapping decisions/errors. I am currently putting together my list but here is a few for now

Jack Hale 2.25m got a lift from Ballarat without even running

Kevin Brittain ran off 6m at Bendigo and now on 7m at Stawell. Not even sure that is possible within the rules

Cam Dunbar wins the non penalty race yesterday and gets a 0.5m gift lift into Stawell

Despard generous 0.5m Gift lift despite winning the Don 70m

Galic made Group 1 final at Albury hasn't run since and gets a lift

Matt Hargraeves 1m lift from Bendigo to Stawell

Bros Kelly 0.75m lift from Bendigo to Stawell

Andrew Robinson 0.75m lift from his last Victorian Run

Luke Stevens back only 0.75m for winning Keilor yet Will Johns back 1.25 for winnings Trinity

Mitch Williams comes back 2.75m for coming 2nd in the gift 2 years ago and meets the man who beat him 1.25m worse off.

Then there's Mel Breen. 23m in the 200 and 8m in the 70. Not sure how you can have run 23.1 and find yourself with 23m. Or 11.1 and have 8m in the 70 when you are a good starter

Richard Brown in the 200m has 17m. He ran last season off 16m, somehow got a 6m lift into Maryborough this season and won by a country mile in 20.1 and only went back 5. He beat almost all in that final by 5m+

The 200's on the whole have strange marks everywhere. Runners who have won gifts during the season and even made 200 finals got lifts, and others who ran similar times but not won stayed the same.

2 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:55 pm

The Judge


Just a quick browse to start will have a more in depth look later on

3 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:02 pm

Hollywood


Dunbar ,most looked after athlete in the VAL

4 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:55 pm

Guest

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handicappers position usually open for nomination at end of season ,who would want it u cant please anyone Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

5 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:56 pm

youngy

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Keilor $5000 first prize - winner pulled back 0.75m from his winning mark. A fair, rational & the correct penalty for Stawell.
Loxton $5000 first prize - winner pulled back 2.0m from his winning mark.

Flagstaff Hill first prize was <$500 which I believe would carry a discretionary penalty for Stawell. The handicapper can choose to make it non-penalty as he did for Hectorville.

If it wasn't such a silly, laughable decision to whack Innes-Wong so heavily for what was an inferior (Loxton Gift) win (to Keilor) I would be furious. But you just to have to laugh because it is an absolute nonsense & I can just imagine how funny Graham Goldsworthy would sound trying to justify it. To me it would be like Tony Abbot trying to explain (to the Australian public) his Australia Day knighthood awarded to Phil the Greek.  Laughing

Ho hum......

Good thread by the way 'The Judge'. The inconsistencies are bizarre.



Last edited by youngy on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total


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6 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:58 pm

youngy

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bazzap wrote:handicappers position usually open for nomination at end of season ,who would want it u cant please anyone Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes



To research & examine the performances of a lot of these athletes is a massive job. No-one's disputing that. But Bazza, the handicapper is his own worst enemy. Just be consistent in respect to penalties for races of similar calibre & prizemoney. It isn't that hard. Rolling Eyes


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7 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:37 pm

auspro


Expected from the handicappers. Will penalise interstaters maximum for performing well. But turn a blind eye to times and marks they where off In thise states. then will advise they only care about vic runs for accurate handicapping or lifts

8 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:50 pm

The Judge


CIW 70 mark bigger than his Gift mark Youngy. Go figure! Have noticed a fair few more strange marks in other events but will wait and see what others think before posting any more

9 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:02 pm

ZZZZ


Some interesting girls marks as well. A major gift winner in recent years has a significant lift since her last VAL run. Has the field been lifted for Breen?



Last edited by ZZZZ on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

10 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:05 pm

oldman


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Have you put a call in to the handicappers Youngy to discuss?

The handicap review panel is there for utilisation

Hell of a lot of negativity on here against the VAL handicapping system but as per always there is the review panel there for anyone who feels they have been really hard done by

11 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:25 pm

spring23


the negativity comes about because anybody who cares too can look up results and handicaps after each meeting,and when you do this you find all the inconsistencies that occur every week.
wouldnt it be good if you only got penalised for winning.

12 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:27 pm

GLPR


oldman what if your own handicaps are ok and everyone elses are wrong Twisted Evil can't get that reviewed Mad

13 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:46 pm

gojira


oldman wrote:Have you put a call in to the handicappers Youngy to discuss?

The handicap review panel is there for utilisation

Hell of a lot of negativity on here against the VAL handicapping system but as per always there is the review panel there for anyone who feels they have been really hard done by

How does one go about having their marks reviewed by the panel?

14 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:31 pm

oldman


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Ring Tom at the VAL and ask him about the process

15 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:33 pm

youngy

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Admin
Doesn't it cost $500 to appeal a mark?


_________________
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16 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:18 pm

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Page 28 of the Handicapping Regulations
"Handicap Appeal
1. If you are not happy with the outcome of the Handicap Review, then you have the right to lodge
an appeal against your handicap. To do this you must complete the Handicap Appeal
Application form (available at www.val.org.au or by contacting the VAL Office) and submit it to
the VAL office together with the $150 fee (note: for the Stawell Gift the fee is $500)."

17 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:08 pm

Frontie


Outrageous!

How do all these people get pulled for not running??? How is that possible? My understanding is that you have to have done something in order to get pulled!

I hope the handicapper has not planned on giving the rationale that the field has been moved back 0.50m as this is clearly not the case with hale, Brittain and Hargreaves. If it was the case, they would have been awarded a lift of 1.50m. This is an outrage!! Everyone needs to speak up regarding this in order to get it changed back to a somewhat fair system. Complete idiocy.

18 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:12 pm

youngy

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Admin
Thanks Dizzy. Unless there's a chance of getting allocated a mark that gives one a chance of making the final, it is futile to appeal a Stawell Gift mark.


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19 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:41 pm

Frontie


One? The whole lot needs to be redone! Atrocious handicapping.

20 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:30 pm

The Judge


Having looked closer at other events now, it is not just the 70, Gift and 200 with some strange handicapping.

A few in the woman's gift seem to have been  given marks that cannot be correct. As well as the 400m races both open and womens

A couple of examples as I dont have time to name them all as there are way too many

Caitlin Hawks has 12m in the womans gift despite being a 12 mid, 25 mid, 56 high runner and state champion over 400m hurdles going sub 1 minute.

Voumard finished 2nd in the Black Opal. Pulled 6 metres.
Stevens finished 0.4 behind him in 6th place. Pulled 0 metres
Voumard must be awfully good to run 6 metres on 0.4 seconds

21 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:02 am

Trackstar

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If we were judging the handicapper My Kitchen Rules style, I'd say at best, about 3 out of 10. 
There's athletes who are back from last year for just showing something and not winning. I can't see how an athlete who did not make the final, did not break net time, has not won a Gift, can be worse off than in 2014?

Yet the handicapper has lifted athletes who have not turned up.

I can't work them out. What I think is there are a lot of athletes handicapped out of the race and very few handicapped into it. 

I would hate to be a Bookie operating on this Gift. just not enough serious chances to get excited.

It lacks 'seasoning' and the plate looks bland.

22 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:05 am

Bumble Bee Man

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Colin from MKR wouldn't except it, he would send this list back and tell them to start again.

23 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:29 am

racingmania


So much for the VAL's "great" system.
If the end result is a dogs breakfast of inconsistencies and anomalies, thank god for the SA handicapping system based on common sense.

24 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:03 am

Bumble Bee Man

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Common sense when it works for you though. I bet Johns is thinking "thank God for the VAL handicapping system based on common sense" hahahaha

FYI you better get on Johns quick coz I'm going to smash him so hard that his odds will be $1.01 when I'm finished with him

25 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:13 am

Frontie


Me too. Johns to be down to 99 cents by close of business on day of market opening!

26 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:00 am

youngy

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The Judge wrote:CIW 70 mark bigger than his Gift mark Youngy. Go figure! Have noticed a fair few more strange marks in other events but will wait and see what others think before posting any more


CIW's 70m mark is competitive and gives him something to at least look forward to at Easter in terms of making a final. The fact it is now in front of the Gift mark proves only that the Gift mark is a bit of a joke. But that's the way it is.

Exhibit A: In the Don Furness 70m - Despard gave Chris IW 3m start and beat him by about 0.75m. In the Gift - for an extra 50m, he meets CIW 1.25m better off. So effectively Chris is about 2m behind Despard at the 70m of the Gift.

The interesting thing is Despard was not at Ballarat where CIW was 2nd off 7.50m. Despards' mark at the time was 3.75m. So Despard was giving CIW 3.75m over 120m. Do the maths - another 50m and he only has 0.75m to make up after making up 3m in the first 70m. Pretty easy to work out that had Despard run at Ballarat he probably runs 2nd and may well have won it.

I liken Despard to three times Tassie Stawell Gift finalist Simon Bresnehan. He may not win the Gift but he is in the mix for the final.



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27 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:54 am

Guest

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Frontie wrote:Me too. Johns to be down to 99 cents by close of business on day of market opening!



I will bet $1.50 betfair for $2000

if you are silly enough to take it

28 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:11 pm

Pro Pasto


KB's mark is surely a mistake?!?.. Next year is going to be the year of UP's if the handicapper rewards like this. Has to be a final chance off his current mark.

29 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:15 pm

chopper


It is always the same with regard to stawell handicaps. winners and losers.
the way i read it is as follows -if you have made a stawell final you are done. You will never attain that mark again. I think the handicapper has taken a dim view of those that have improved significantly and make a stawell final.
Some (or most) of those with lifts have not made a Stawell final and have reasonably disclosed form - thus of all those mentioned we are not going to see a crawford or brimacombe make a fool of the handicapper
Those that have won gifts this year have also disclosed form and as long as you have never got the handicapper at Stawell they have been treated reasonably.
VAL runners probably been advantaged - again not unfair
Interstate runners who have appeared a few times have been rewarded.
Interstate runners that have done well at recent VAL meets he has been wary of - fair call
NSW runners have also been treated warily.
So having run in era where there would always be 3 or 4 finalists in the final it will be good to see 6 new finalists - I think the handicapper has done well!!

30 Re: Stawell Handicap head scratchers on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:33 pm

racingmania


Stawell Gift marks 2014 to 2015

No.First NameSurname2015 H'cap2014 H'capDIFFERENCE
1BenjaminFARRELL8.506.002.50
2HenryNWOSU8.506.751.75
3NathanDIXON10.008.501.50
4TedBELCHER7.006.001.00
5KevinBRITTAIN7.006.001.00
6SamDICK8.007.001.00
7GaryFINEGAN4.503.501.00
8MaxPUNCHIHEWA8.007.001.00
9GlennROSS10.009.001.00
10JakeSANDERS7.006.001.00
11DanielSTEINHAUSER8.507.501.00
12MattCARTER2.001.250.75
13DeanDOBRIC10.009.250.75
14CamDUNBAR8.758.000.75
15JONATHANDYKES8.758.000.75
16MatthewHARGREAVES6.505.750.75
17ChristopherHARGREAVES8.007.250.75
18CameronMOSS8.007.250.75
19TomPAAVOLA8.507.750.75
20JamesVINE6.005.250.75
21MichaelVOUMARD9.759.000.75
22JasonBAILEY8.508.000.50
23CoreyBAKER7.507.000.50
24RyanBEDFORD4.504.000.50
25JacobDESPARD4.253.750.50
26JakeHAMMOND2.001.500.50
27BrendanMATTHEWS6.756.250.50
28CarlMOREHOUSE6.005.500.50
29JasperNETTLEFOLD7.006.500.50
30AndrewROBINSON4.003.500.50
31BikramjeetSINGH9.509.000.50
32JordanTRONNOLONE8.257.750.50
33ThomasYEUNG7.006.500.50
34HamishADAMS7.257.000.25
35AndrewCAMPBELL9.008.750.25
36JarradDARTNALL10.009.750.25
37LukeECKFORD8.258.000.25
38ChristianFOSTER6.005.750.25
39BrandonGALIC5.755.500.25
40ShaunHARGREAVES6.756.500.25
41WilliamKERR8.508.250.25
42DanielLEMOTO9.509.250.25
43NathanMcNAB9.008.750.25
44ThomasMOLONEY6.256.000.25
45DylanPANIZZA7.757.500.25
46LiamSHEPHERD8.007.750.25
47RobertSPENCER7.757.500.25
48LukeSTORTA8.007.750.25
49LachlanTAYLOR9.759.500.25
50BryceTEO6.256.000.25
51KoffiAGBALETI9.009.000.00
52StuartBAINBRIDGE7.007.000.00
53SamuelBAIRD6.506.500.00
54RichardBROWN10.0010.000.00
55LawrenceCOOP10.0010.000.00
56MathewCURRIE7.257.250.00
57DavidFLOOD10.0010.000.00
58CraigFOLEY10.0010.000.00
59RhysGILLSON8.008.000.00
60MatthewHARVEY10.0010.000.00
61MarkHIGNETT10.0010.000.00
62RyanHOFFMAN10.0010.000.00
63MartinHORNE10.0010.000.00
64VincentJASON8.008.000.00
65KristerferKARDAKOVSKI7.507.500.00
66WilliamLITTLE10.0010.000.00
67NickMAGREE10.0010.000.00
68RodneyMATHEWS10.0010.000.00
69MaximMISHCHENKO6.256.250.00
70JakeMISPELHORN7.007.000.00
71BenMISPELHORN4.004.000.00
72JackNEWMAN6.506.500.00
73PeterO'DWYER10.0010.000.00
74LeighPHELAN10.0010.000.00
75LiamPROCACCINO8.258.250.00
76TimothyROSEN10.0010.000.00
77TjimarriSANDERSON7.007.000.00
78DeanSCARFF5.505.500.00
79RyanSCHMIDT7.257.250.00
80VicSHARMA10.0010.000.00
81MartySINCLAIR10.0010.000.00
82LaurentSTEWART6.256.250.00
83BenSYRUS7.007.000.00
84ShaneWOODROW10.0010.000.00
85DavidAFATH5.255.50-0.25
86TimESCHEBACH6.757.00-0.25
87DouglasGREENOUGH8.508.75-0.25
88DylanHICKS9.7510.00-0.25
89LukeHOULIHAN7.257.50-0.25
90ConorLOUGHNAN6.757.00-0.25
91DaleLYONS9.7510.00-0.25
92EdwardWARE8.258.50-0.25
93KeitaBANGALIE4.505.00-0.50
94MurrayGOODWIN6.507.00-0.50
95SimonJACKSON9.009.50-0.50
96LukeWHITNEY7.257.75-0.50
97JordanCALDOW1.752.50-0.75
98JaydenGILFILLAN7.258.00-0.75
99MatthewEDDY7.758.75-1.00
100SimonFITZPATRICK8.509.50-1.00
101TomNEWMAN6.507.50-1.00
102LukeSTEVENS2.503.50-1.00
103JoshTIU8.009.00-1.00
104WillJOHNS5.006.25-1.25
105PaulTANCREDI7.258.50-1.25
106IsaacDUNMALL5.258.00-2.75
107ChristopherINNES-WONG6.008.75-2.75

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