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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Women's Stonnington Marks

Women's Stonnington Marks

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1 Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:15 pm

Toolman


G'day guys new to ProTrack but have a couple of questions re handicapping. Why would Tassie runner Lily Castle who ran off 7.75m at Ballarat Keilor and Trinity,the same as Karlee Bailey and Grace O'Dywer have 7m for Stonnington when the other two have 6.5m which is the correct 100m mark for somebody off 7.75m over the 120m journey ?? and would Kirsty Stevens slashing 12.68sec PB in the Victorian Juniors from a previous pb of 12.93sec have any bearing on her handicap for Stonnington? Would she be pulled back like Christine Wearne was pulled back at Ballarat or was Wearne pulled for the withholding of her recent PB?

2 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:35 pm

Hubbaup


Welcome Toolman that is massive whack off someone's PB mate so I think there would be a look at the handicap for sure. What mark has she got ? As for the Castle one dunno how that one works. There will be some guys on here that know how it all works champ.

3 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:43 pm

Toolman


Stevens has 8m Hubbaup

4 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:57 pm

Hubbaup


Gee it seems she may be nicely placed then if she doesn't go back but all PB's have to be submitted straight away so it will be looked at for sure. What the handicappers will do I can't help you there.

5 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:48 pm

HaleStorm


maybe because lily is an interstate athlete who has travelled up north a couple of times and was due a lift for stonnington when the others weren't

6 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:10 pm

Toolman


Ok Halestorm maybe , I just thought .5m was a very generous lift to give a Stawell Women's Finalist just before a race like this. Good luck to Lily though

7 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:02 pm

Hubbaup


Castles mark for Avondale Heights has been listed as 8m so 6.75m should be her mark over the 100m at Stonnington I would think.

8 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:38 am

robynm


Being a supporter of the sport for many years I struggle to understand how Lilly Castle an athlete who has only done 5-6 meets in Victoria. She come 2nd in the Burnie gift in 2014, finalist of stawell 2014 with a personal best of 12.57 can be lifted when she is not running in form - her current form indicate 13.1-2 which really isn't an acceptable performance to have a lift given her ability.

I feel for athletes like Kate Jones who have come so close to a win, but everyone is being lifter around her and she gets left behind. She is not the only one either.

9 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:29 am

Phantom

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Problem for Kate Jones is she only wants to win a big race and is good enough to final but not win, so doesn't get a tick. The handicappers have adopted the approach of rewarding runners for taking small ones so maybe a couple of these girls should release the pressure valve and take a sash before they end up with nothing.

10 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:54 am

airtight

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Robyn raising a good point on Lily Castle. Her mark is same as Grace O'Dwyer and her PB says in best form should beat Grace. She is finishing too far away from Grace for me. Shouldn't be getting lifted. Couple of Tassie athletes coming over every week with one meet and the big coin in mind.

11 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:34 pm

sprintstar


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Tasmanian's must be interested in more than one race considering they won 2 races on Saturday. So no need to make stuff up Smile

12 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:41 pm

Toolman


Totally agree with Robyn and Airtight Castle didn't look like she was going too hard at Stonnington and Avondale Heights to me. Maybe with a few Hot Cross buns and Chocy Eggs in the system there may be an improvement. Was interesting that Kirsty Stevens was pulled back in the Stonnington Under 20's race but not in the Main Race. I'm assuming the pull in the U20 race was for the recent PB. Does anybody know how much of a PB is required to adjust your mark.Castles mark is actually better then O'Dywers now Airtight.

13 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:32 pm

Phantom

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I didn't think this forum had become a vehicle to 'pot' another runner? Put up $60k for the women's race and all of a sudden it's open season. Lets play nice people, there are more than a few hiding their best so we don't need to get personal on here.

14 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:41 pm

airtight

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sprintstar wrote:Tasmanian's must be interested in more than one race considering they won 2 races on Saturday. So no need to make stuff up Smile



one of the races was the Don Furness, richest 70 going around. Winner couldn't make the final of the 70 at Keilor. Big form improvement on previous week.
Castle is a faster sprinter than O'Dwyer, just saying.......and look where Grace is finishing in the finals.

15 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:51 pm

Phantom

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And one of the races was a $500 120m. Of course the Tasmanian's are coming here for the $$$'s, at this time of year Victoria is the only League putting up decent coin. Good luck to them, they pay their entries, a bucket load of travel costs and are running well.
Despard actually made the 70m final at Trinity so not quite accurate in your facts. Lets not get started on inconsistent performances because I think there are some bigger ones to look at in the last week than him!

16 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:10 pm

airtight

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OK Phantom you got me on the Trinity one. I forgot he ran 6th.  
I checked. 4 in semi went thru to final. Despard only one to lose time from the semi. Other 3- Coop,Johns,Hilditch improved.
Super run to win Don Furness, didn't lose time this this week.  Wink

17 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:07 pm

Trackstar

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Looks like here's a few people getting jumpy about their Easter prospects. Castle too exposed to win Stawell.
Look north to NSW and Qld for the real smokeys. The ones we haven't seen yet.

18 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:57 pm

Bossenbanter


The Don Furness 70m has a limit, and marks are pulled back, Despard who is usually off 3.25m ran from 0.75m, making it a whole different ball game. The kid is running consistent if you ask me and just had a cracker of a final in the Don. Airtight, you need to get your facts right, he made the 70m final at Trinity, placed 6th, which was dominated by front markers, same as the Open 70m at Avondale, then when it came to the Don he had more meters to chase down the front markers who weren't that far infront and he pulled through.

Castle on the other hand, hasn't got anywhere close to her PB in the last 12 months, and if you actually look at Grace O'Dwyer's PB it is 12.56, the same as Castles from over a year ago.

The Tasmanian's would have paid a lot more in flights, accom, entries etc than the money they are winning so I think you should all respect their commitment.

19 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:55 pm

oldman


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What I'm thinking is this:

Someone's going to be 'Davina' Strauss'? Not submit correct info/PBs then come out and smash the field to bits win the heat by 15m, then the officials only option is to re-handicap but the bird has flown, the horse has galloped, cop a 5m pull but still be up on times by stacks and still win the final jogging down the track by 5m?

Geez that will be exciting to watch

20 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:59 pm

Guest

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oldman wrote:What I'm thinking is this:

Someone's going to be 'Davina' Strauss'? Not submit correct info/PBs then come out and smash the field to bits win the heat by 15m, then the officials only option is to re-handicap but the bird has flown, the horse has galloped, cop a 5m pull but still be up on times by stacks and still win the final jogging down the track by 5m?

Geez that will be exciting to watch


davina was cleared of not having done any wrong in her nomination ,the error was in the handicap given,and the information passed to handicapper.

21 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:29 am

robynm


Just because an athlete spends money for flights and accommodation to visit us here in Victoria, it doesn't give them the right to run below performance and expect or be given a lift because they have stumped up a lot of money.

Castle was in in 12.5 form last Stawell where she placed in the final, she has since been lifted half a metre while in 13.2 form, I am struggling to understand this - I bet my bottom dollar that she will make the final at Stawell this year when the big coin is on offer - suddenly she 'finds form'. Looking at Castle race at Stonnington she looks fit as a fiddle, but doesnt engage top gear!

The Tasmanian's really get a good deal, take Michelle Davis she has won nearly 40 races in her career back in Tasmania and still makes finals every time she races - her form is up and down like a yo-yo but somehow always ends up on a generous mark where she is in the mix. She shouldnt have the mark to be in contention for any more wins!

22 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:55 am

Admin

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I'm getting a little bit concerned by this targeting of one athlete, albeit the premise of the argument is sound in that an athlete down on form getting lifted.....just prefer if athletes were not directly named.

HOWEVER:

1. She is not the only one; for every Tassie athlete there's probably 10 main land athletes getting the same benefit, just....that the others are flying under the radar.

2. The athlete doesn't handicap themselves. The handicapper has the responsibility of assessing performance. He is the one taking the risk. The athlete is just fronting up each week &  running according to 'current' form.

In essence the VAL system is now far more heavily based on current or most recent form rather than the athlete's best form. And the more times you can run consistently "sub-par" the closer you are to getting a lift....and another lift...and another lift. That's why we have a situation of some athletes repeatedly winning major races. They've worked out the system and use it to their advantage.



Last edited by Admin on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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23 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:09 am

Bossenbanter


Yes I'm sure these Tasmania athletes spend all that money to come over and 'fox'.
Do you really think a 17 year old is only running for the money side of things? What ever happened to running for a passion, not the reward at the end. Stop giving younger athletes a hard time, they are the future of our sport and by people interrogating them when they may not be in form- for a variety of reasons that may not be anyone's business, doesn't exactly encourage them to want to run.

When the mainlanders take the journey down to Tassie for a couple of days it's a huge deal and they get generous handicaps, but you don't see the Tasmania athletes kicking up a storm about it. They are clearly committed to supporting the VAL carnivals, and great for the league to have interstate runners from Tasmania, Sydney, Adelaide etc running so why try to push them away?
It's the handicappers choice as to what marks athletes are given, so instead of publicly bad naming an athlete for a mark that was given to them, why don't you address the handicapper personally?

24 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:16 am

Graeme Lebroy


I am no mathematician but....

At Stawell last year Castle ran 13.69 in her semi (slightly slower in final) off 12.5.

Adjusted back to the starting target time of 14.2 she should be running off 7.75.

Almost fell over when I looked at the Keilor results and she ran off....7.75!

What am I missing???

25 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:45 am

robynm


Graeme Lebroy wrote:I am no mathematician but....

At Stawell last year Castle ran 13.69 in her semi (slightly slower in final) off 12.5.

Adjusted back to the starting target time of 14.2 she should be running off 7.75.

Almost fell over when I looked at the Keilor results and she ran off....7.75!

What am I missing???


So your saying she should run 14.3 not the 14.62 she ran? are you saying this is good or bad? what is an acceptable variance? If we are looking at under performing athletes from tasmania at present, look at Geelan 14.79 off 8m at keilor yet won Burnie 6 weeks prior in 14.4 from 9m. Geelan and Castle are from the same group right? interesting to see what gets under the radar.

26 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:04 am

Bossenbanter


Castle and Geelan are not in the same squad no, Castle is coached by Ray Quarrell, and Geelan is coached by Wayne Mason. I think the Tasmanian's are not the people you should be worrying about. There's one female from Queensland I would be keeping my eye on. Ran the fastest heat time at Keilor but couldn't pull through in the final.

27 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:51 am

Phantom

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Again, not comfortable with the focus being put on one athletes handicap. Graeme Lebroy says she is now on her nominal start mark so what is the issue, she is entitled to be lifted progressively out to her ceiling point like any other athlete.
Lets not start pointing fingers about inconsistent running as there were a few standouts from Ballarat to Keilor to Stonnington!!

28 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:34 am

Bumble Bee Man

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how can Geelan and Castle go under the radar now when you are shouting their names from the roof top! How about we shout your name or someone you're associated with from the roof tops. I thought not!

either yourself or someone close to you has a chance, otherwise you wouldn't be this sooky about it. Get over it and just beat them. If you know what shape they are in, then who cares because you will know what it takes to beat them. I Hope they both make the final and "FLY" down the track

29 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:21 pm

MOB

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Robynm, I think you have taken an unreasonable (and most likely calculated) pot shot at another athlete. Her start mark was calculated correctly in accordance with the regulations. Athletes form fluctuates, especially young athletes, and the form of other athletes including those you "feel for" and others from the same region, have similarly fluctuated.

My experience tells me you are using this forum to "out" a rival you are concerned about. I suggest you consider the possible negative impact on the young athlete concerned.

Most likely you will argue you are only having a crack at the system, but as Paul stated, you can do so without naming someone.

All the best to Ray Q and his Tassie crew. I'm sure they will support her and ensure she bounces back.

30 Re: Women's Stonnington Marks on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:30 pm

Littleratrunning


Not even sure why anyone would suggest Geelan is trying to fly under the radar. She's injured and isn't even running again this season. As for Michelle Davis and her numerous Tassie wins have you any idea what races they were? Mainly minor carnivals. she has actually only had about 4 big Tassie carnival wins to her name and these wins have been in distances from 200m through to 800m she's never won a major gift down the middle. As for Lilly Castle leave the girl alone up until now her form may not be at her best and that could be due to a number of reasons we don't all have a perfect lives & some athletes have more important issues outside of athletics that can often occupy our minds. Best wishes to Lilly and I hope she has a successful second half of her season & uses her feet to stick it up the wingers!

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