PROTRACK

A forum devoted to track events from 60m to the 2 mile. Mainly pro but also news from local, national and international sprint & middle distance competitions.

Log in

I forgot my password



Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» VAL CALENDAR 2017/2018
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:03 pm by youngy

» 2018 BUNBURY GIFT
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:33 am by AussiePro

» Bridge of Allan Highland Games
Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:08 pm by JH

» Stand Up Comedy debut
Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:16 pm by youngy

» St Andrews (Scotland)
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:42 am by JH

» Mull Highland Games.
Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:57 pm by JH

» Regular VAL runner picked in U/18 Vic Metro AFL team to play WA
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:16 pm by Willo the Whisp

» Airth(Scotland)
Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:09 am by JH

» Vale.. John Stoney John passed away last wednesday and his funeral will be held today in Albury
Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:50 pm by Jack Stoney

August 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar


You are not connected. Please login or register

PROTRACK » GENERAL » Observations

Observations

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

1 Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:48 pm

Mex

avatar
Moderator
Moderator
I nearly wrote something like this a couple of weeks ago after watching some athletes jog around the track, but after yesterday I suppose that the questions I have may need some clarification or at least some discussion form the wise forum members.
The Don Furness showed exactly some of my points/questions yesterday.

How do athletes continually jog/walk down/around the track and not get spoken to?
How can athletes improve huge amounts from one week to the next and not get spoken to?
How can younger athletes not keep up/beat much older competitors in open middle distance races?
When will the 'big boys' of the track run their low 12 sec 120m consistently and how is it that they are not running at least mid 12sec at every other event when we all know that they will do so at Ballarat, Burramine, Bendigo, Stawell etc? (I know we can peak, but even without a peak we should be seeing faster times)
Just because someone makes a semi or a final does that mean that they should not be scrutinised more closely?

If we need examples we could look at those 'nasty' Americans from above the border as a starting point who 'slugged' or was that 'wormed' their way down the track without burning any of their 'coal' during their last visit.

I am sure we could all name multiple names in all distances who we think are doing this, but, what thoughts do we have?

2 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:28 pm

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
I shall add to your list Mex:

Where has transparency gone in the VAL? Why aren't NAPs and UPs public so that we can rest easy knowing some of those 'walking' down the track are being pinged and so that others can ask questions when others who should be pinged, aren't?

3 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:47 pm

SANCHEZ


Are we happy for our names to be published for all to see as an unsatisfactory performer at a meeting? I certainly am if it means the handicapping system is to be seen as transparent. Time to get them up so we can tell whether the stewards are seeing what the rest of us can see.

4 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:25 pm

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Dizzy isn't happy when he is pulled for winning a race but knows it is in the best interest of the sport. The same can be said for publishing NAP/UPs results if it helps establish the legitimacy of the handicapping AND racing.

5 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:59 pm

Mick The Rex

avatar
ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Dizzy needs to stop referring to himself in the third person, possibly a product of too many laps, going round and round in circles!

6 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:05 pm

jknott123


well i know mick the rex said i should keep away from the keyboard but i cant help myself when a topic comes up that is near to my heart.i made a comment recently about runners running 3 distance races in the one day which makes it impossible to win, but the system says have 3 runs and you get a lift.and yes where are the stewards and handicappers who must see it every week.i dont follow the sprints but i have seen one bloke the last three weeks that has been very sus.as far as times go i would say the last three meetings i have been to St.Albans Wangaratta and Avondale Heights the tracks have been slow.

7 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:12 pm

Phantom

avatar
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Womens 120 final yesterday was the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. The lead changed 3 times in the last metre of the race as various girls leant backwards trying not to win. Here's a word of advice, 'if you don't want to win, don't friggin run'! Also the performances of some very well credentialled runners up the straight track was laughable. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

8 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:18 pm

Mex

avatar
Moderator
Moderator
At least they spoke to the young kid i suppose, unlike some seasoned pros who get away with it and still get lifts.

9 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:25 pm

Phantom

avatar
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Yes they spoke to one but there was another 3 they should have spoken to as well. How can multiple Stawell Gift finalists not make the final of a $500 open race and not get chatted to??

10 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:21 pm

Mick The Rex

avatar
ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Mr Knott, never once did MTR say you should stay away from the keyboard, that was another contributor.
What MTR was suggesting is that you should be concentrating on coaching and managing your athletes to maximise both potential and opportunity, and that getting on this forum and jumping up and down at every opportunity on how they were being treated by the handicappers probably wasn't going to help?
Furthermore your references to other runners doesn't help your cause, don't worry what others are doing, just concentrate on getting the job done with your athletes, otherwise this forum will just end up being a distraction hindering your efforts!

11 Re: Observations on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:09 pm

jknott123


mick the rex i was replying to the comments made by mex you should go back and read them also i have never complained about the handicappers for my runners only made a comment on one of my runners being penalised by the HRP not by the handicapper if he had of been penalised by the handicapper i would have no complaints you have yet to say something sensible see if you can come up with something thats applicable to the thread.

12 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:54 am

Trackstar

avatar
Moderator
Moderator
I agree Mex. the handicapping & stewarding needs a major overhaul. It's frustrating trying to deal with a conga line of incompetent officials who refuse to acknowledge the problems. It's gone on for years and is worse now than at any time in the last 20 years.
As Phantom said, how do well performed athletes capable of running 12.3 or better at Stawell, get away with sub standard runs week after week.
Come Easter we all know (except the handicappers/stewards) they will suddenly find several metres and run their 12.2's again.

We're suppose to be the best regulated in the country. We're kidding ourselves.

13 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:42 pm

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Serial offender went around on the weekend in 1600m womens and vets.
7 Placings 4th or higher this seaon and still no sash.
Hippity hop hippity hop here comes the Easter Bunny.

14 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:30 pm

Double Jeopardy


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Whispers wrote:Serial offender went around on the weekend in 1600m womens and vets.
7 Placings 4th or higher this seaon and still no sash.
Hippity hop hippity hop here comes the Easter Bunny.

The 1600m Womens/Vets on the weekend provided a great opportunity to flush out an Easter Bunny. With Dingwell running so fast (did he run off the wrong hcp?), an 'Easter Bunny' could have got sucked into flashing home and revealing form they haven't previously showed this season. One would imagine, if anyone in the field had more up their sleeve they would have closed the gap at least a little and not have Dingwell winning by 10 seconds plus? But no one did, everyone basically ran in line with what they have done previously this season in their Open / Vets races. Perhaps, there aren't any 'Easter Bunnies' in the Womens/Vets Mile at the moment, or at least they didn't run at Ballarat?

15 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:12 pm

oldman


ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
It's a wonder all those who we're saying this and saying that, who will jump out of the box, who is the Easter bunnies etc, haven't observed the very unorthodox preparation of the women's gift winner, I'm sure I saw this runner running a MILE last weekend? Wouldn't think too many Gift winners have run a MILE the weekend before? Maybe a good trivia question for the real historians of the sport?

16 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:29 pm

airtight

avatar
oldman wrote:It's a wonder all those who we're saying this and saying that, who will jump out of the box, who is the Easter bunnies etc, haven't observed the very unorthodox preparation of the women's gift winner, I'm sure I saw this runner running a MILE last weekend? Wouldn't think too many Gift winners have run a MILE the weekend before? Maybe a good trivia question for the real historians of the sport?


She ran the 1600 and 800 at Avondale Heights.
Obviously her mark in the 120 was too much. No athlete can train for both distance and sprints and expect to be competitive in both.
She should have been under the scrutiny of the handicapper and not been lifted while she continued to run distance events.
It's insulting to the true sprinters who train specifically for sprints and had to give her a start.
Her distance marks should be frozen because if she is concentrating in sprints, she is under performing in distance.

17 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:57 pm

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
How ridiculous. If an athlete is willing to hurt themselves in any event and races consistently over an extended period over a particular distance, then the handicapper should reward them.

Much like Adam Coote, these athletes are few and far between and usually train across both ends of the spectrum.

The green eyed monster hath shown thy face.

18 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:33 pm

airtight

avatar
Sorry dizzy. Absolute rubbish.
Nothing to do with envy.
Do you really think our elite sprinters would be running in 1600s/800s a week out from a major race?
It's OK for hobby runners but the standard demanded by handicappers is for sprinters to be in good sprint shape.
I bet if a Gift finalist ran in the 1600/800 last week they'd be fronting the stewards.
The bigger the money the better the standards.
Coote is a classic case. Run sprints while in distance shape and push the sprint marks out. Good luck to him but the handicapper is a dunce for falling for it.

19 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:45 pm

ToM

avatar
ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
You run,
you get an AP.
You run, you get an AP.
You run some more, you get an AP and a lift.

It's the same for everyone.

Nothing is stopping you from participating in distance events too; for me, it's common sense and a love of oxygen, but each to their own.

Either way, stop clubbing "stuffed teddy bears".

(picture removed and text changed as requested)

20 Re: Observations on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:56 pm

airtight

avatar
Love your work ToM. Point taken.

21 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:18 am

K_Moore


A couple of other important comments to note airtight, is that the lady in question has not received a lift in the women's 120 since the first one of the season, Rye (and nor should she have), where she was 3rd. She was 4th at St Albans, 2nd at Albury to an inform Olympian and finally a win on Sunday by 1/4 of a metre. Also, if you care to review her history over the 120/100m distance, you will see that she is in fact in PB shape.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good story

22 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:41 am

airtight

avatar
Thanks Kate. Looking forward to you running 800s and 1600s to run yourself into PB shape for 120's.
Sorry, but Celia won't be at her best for 120 until she removes the distance running from her race schedule.

23 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:54 am

youngy

avatar
Admin
Admin
I think the fact Celia Cosgriff ran the 800m and 1600m a week before the Ballarat Women's 120m is clear evidence she was not specifically set for the race.

So you coudn't argue it was a deliberate ploy to confuse the handicappers. She just runs each week in every event she enters.

The premise of whether she could improve her sprints if she ceased running in distance events is a moot point. I tend to agree that the ideal prep for a sprint race would not involve a 1600m the week before, but it depends on the level of athlete and what the background is.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

Stokesy

avatar
ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Any chance of an edit of the post above which includes an Animal Cruelty picture?
I think that this picture is not appropriate or acceptable.

25 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:51 pm

rob_vid


done.

26 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:15 pm

Willo the Whisp

avatar
I never write on the forum because I am far too busy with my work. my aths squad coaching, my rugby league speed and agility coaching and my family commitments, however I think it only appropriate to clarify a couple of points made in earlier posts.

Youngy, Celia was set for the Ballarat 120m, however her preparation is far more complex than a normal athlete which I will elaborate on below.

I agree with "Airtight" in that, a genuine sprinter would never do an 800 or 1600m as part of their preparation because they wouldn't recover and maximise their power output for a high performance or best performance. So in other words Katie Moore or any of my other genuine sprinters would never run an 800 or 1600m in their preparation because yes it would make them slower and be adverse to the prospects of peaking for a high or pb performance. I do not allow my genuine sprinters to engage in long work when looking to work on their speed development and peaking process.

However, genuine middle distance runners who are trained through a speed program (not those developed on a long slow program like many middle distance athletes) recover very quickly from speed endurance events because they continually train in those speed endurance tolerance thresholds. Therefore a middle distance runner can still be fresh for a quality performance one week after engaging in middle distance races or training. Such an athlete will be even fresher if during the week they then only engage in speed work and minimise their normal middle distance work. This will assist them to produce a better short distance performance and even a middle distance performance. BTW - Are you aware that when a genuine middle distance athlete when nearing their best shape for middle distance are quite often at their most efficient and at their most economical strength weight ratio and quite often near their best possible sprinting performance, provided that their training program has been speed endurance based?

In the case of Celia, she suffers a severe thyroid condition which requires her and myself to balance her energy outputs and racing and training loads to ensure her calcium levels are not too high or too low. If they are unbalanced she will have an adverse performance in every distance she competes in or trains in.

So therefore for the last 6 weeks where she had predominantly focussed on sprinting, it has still been imperative that she keep speed endurance and tempo endurance in her training and racing program so her calcium and energy levels are not unbalanced. Celia did no long work in the lead up to Ballarat, however it was essential that an energy output that maintained her normal levels was still undertaken, meaning she still had to engage in some longer work as part of her preparation. In order to make sure that the long work was not undertaken too close to Ballarat it was undertaken at Avondale Heights. She did not compete in the sprints at Avondale Heights because her sprinting position was beyond that of the anticipated standard of competition and therefore she did not engage in a race where she would be forced to "pull up". Instead she ran her middle distance races and offset her calcium levels so I could keep speed as the focus for the remainder of the week leading into Ballarat to give her the best chance of her body performing to it's best.

Coaching an athlete to perform at that athletes best is not written in a mannual or book, it is about understanding the complexities of the individual athlete that will assist that athletes performance and adjusting the program to fit. In the case of a middle distance athlete that your are trying to prepare for sprinting, sometimes it is still important to keep some longer work in that program to maintain strength weight ratio and stride efficiency whilst still developing speed and complementing it with a greater focus on speed work. Sometimes by giving them the longer work it assists in offsetting the sprinting soreness that they suddenly encounter from the increased speed work and this assists them to actually recover.

In the case of genuine sprinter, you would never usually contemplate such a proposition. In the case of Celia it was absolutely essential to keeping her healthy for the week leading into Ballarat and that meant some long work about no closer than six days before competition to make sure her calcium levels were not too high from doing no long work during the week and just doing speed.

Sometimes there are athletes that don't fit into the normal box of preparation and their versatility and background enable totally different training and race preparation to that of the genuine one dimensional athlete. Usually you wont find this written in a book because most references are designed specifically for the athlete type most suited to that distance, but with my twenty plus years of coaching and my knowledge of exercise physiology it becomes very easy. And t certainly helped Celia in this circumstance. Remember peaking programs are different for every different type and for every individual athlete. No one is the same, and if everyone follows the same program, 95% of the those to which it was not designed for will not optimise performance. Not one of my athletes has the same training program or peaking model. I have two decades of practising many different programs for many different types of athletes of both genders. This has produced an extensive list of strong peaking performances at the right time for most of my athletes who generally record their best rpm or pb at a major pro races or State or National Championship.

Celia is in pb shape over the sprints and not far away from pb shape for her middle distance events. She has only ever won one sprint event before and she has competed in sprints for about ten years. She was a very deserving winner on the weekend and should be congratulated for her performance and overcoming her adversity. BTW - In actual fact it was her conditioning that won the race because the sprinters got to her, but she found in the last 10 metres minimising her speed decelaration and pushing clear because of her speed endurance background.

Food for thought for those that think following the same model works for all....

Well done Celia !!!

Signing out for probably another 12 months.....

Nick Fiedler

27 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:24 pm

GT


Like, almost perfect!

28 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:51 pm

DizzyRunner


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Well said. In fact, so well explained Dizzy is changing his Thursday session. See below:

5x120m (Hard 40 easy 40 hard 40)

30sec rest.

Repeat x 10 to reach 5km of track work necessary to be fit for Stawell 3200m.

29 Re: Observations on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:55 pm

Guest

avatar
Guest
Nick, you shouldn't have to explain yourself like that. She and you did nothing wrong. She won. Fair and square. Well done to her! Those who forced such an in depth response with their pointless comments should focus on their running and not ruin such a good moment for Celia.

30 Re: Observations on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:42 am

Admin

avatar
Admin
Admin
I agree & disagree GuessWho.

Celia did nothing wrong. That's a given. She ran exceptionally well and has overcome more than most with her injuries and the condition that Nick described. I don't think anyone is begrudging her win at all.

But I disagree that an explanation wasn't warranted given the circumstances.  I know several people including some officials who were 'surprised' Celia had run the 800m & 1600m the week before a major sprint.

This sport is always subject to innuendo, conjecture & cynicism.  It's the nature of the sport. Assumptions are made and unless a reasonable explanation is forthcoming then the cynicism & conjecture will remain.

Like Nick I've been around a few years, and it was the first time in my memory that an athlete had won a major sprint on such an unconventional prep.

I made an incorrect assumption and for that I apologise. But then, I was not aware of the unique nature of Celia's condition.

I think it's fantastic that Nick went to such trouble to give such a detailed answer. It puts the whole issue into context.

This forum is here to discuss all sorts of matters. It would be pretty boring if we all just put our collective heads in the sand and never raised any issues.

http://protrack.easyforumlive.com

Sponsored content


View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 2]

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum