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PROTRACK » GENERAL » handicaps

handicaps

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1 handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:10 am

jknott123


I cant understand how an 18 year old can get pulled 10m from his 800m mark because he win's one open 400m race which gives him the potentional to run a good 800m, while cagey old runners can run in 3 distance events at the one meeting not figure in the placings and then get a lift.

2 Re: handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:40 am

oldman


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OGA- something that needs to be monitored and implemented more closely as there seems to be a lot of young runners open to a massive amount of improvement off some very big handicaps, the kids are the future of the sport and need to be made competitive to maintain their interest in pro running, but also need to be reigned in at times once they show natural maturity and improvement.

3 Re: handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:09 pm

Hitman17


John I both agree and disagree with you. Yes there are several vets who cruise around in multiple events in one meet collecting ticks but at the same time there are just as many young athletes in their late teens, early to mid twenties with very big marks in events such as the 400m.
The scope of improvement in most veterans is minimal at best yet the ceiling of improvement in younger athletes is limitless.

4 Re: handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Guest

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Agreed, with all. What I find and maybe this is what jknott23 is eluding to, some vets have just well and truly past their best to the point they should really give it up. The ones I refer to are the ones that have a handicap of around 25% of the race distance.

5 Re: handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:42 pm

jknott123


agreed there are young runners with inflated marks,but 52m in a 800m race after competing for 4 seasons isnt actually a big mark when the limit is 200m!!!! if you look at the times run in the 800m's through out the season they are not quick but as soon as stawell comes you have to be able to run 1.48s to be competitive,so my theory is if you can win off 52m well win get a sash then train hard and improve but its the cagey ones that have had plenty of wins that dont try till stawell comes and that makes it harder for the young runners.if we only had the guts to bring the limit back to where it used to be we would find a lot more young runners coming out and having a go.i dont like to harp back to my day but when i ran there were front and back markers 400s at most meets, 800m would have 10 heats, there were front markers and backmarkers 1600m's,and the times were a lot quicker than today,the times for 800m,1600m,and 3200m are so slow compared with 30 years ago.why is it so.

6 Re: handicaps on Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:06 pm

jknott123


I am not against the vets running I think every meet should have a wom/vets 1600m or 800m plus a wom/vets300m these races have many entries and that's what clubs want entries I just want open 1600m and 800m having the old limits. Not too good watching some of these heats being run when the backies havn't got a chance

7 Re: handicaps on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:48 am

Graeme Lebroy


Off a mark of 52 at St Albans or Rye your boy would need to be able to run a 2.05 off the peg to win....not sure what time he ran to win a 400 but Im assuming 48 and off a mark of 30 (half of 60) so he can probably run a 52 off the peg...thats a time differentital that gives him a fair chance

Last year if you look at the big races the winners over 800 were
Maryborough - Burnett (58)
Wangaratta - Kelly (76)
Ballarat - Noaln (28)
Keilor - Deane (42)
Bendigo - Murphy (30)
Stawell - Phelan (70)

Mostly resepctable marks...The only one that you could argue was incorrectly handicapped was the Stawell winner because of his capabilities over the 1600 and could have been adjusted down. A mark of 70 for a 22/23 (?) year old could be argued is a bit rich....but if you can get out to 60 when you are 18 its not hard to earn another ten so I guess thats what they are guarding against?

8 Re: handicaps on Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:48 am

Whispers


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Not sure what the VAAL has in its rules to contain under age runners but I feel the SAAL having it pretty well covered.

10.6 Handicap Readjustments for Under 21 Athletes

Due to their ability to improve dramatically, athletes aged under 21years can be readjusted from any previous mark at any time if the Handicapper feels the athlete's improvement is such that the current or previous handicap is now inappropriate when compared to the field. Any readjustment will be aimed to ensure the athlete still remains competitive despite the handicap adjustment.

9 Re: handicaps on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:58 pm

Mick The Rex

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Sometimes its probably best to say nothing and let the kids run, getting on this forum and continually whinging does the kid no favours, especially when you're highlighting that the handicapper has it spot on this time around.

Any athlete under 21 is considered OGA, so if an 18yo comes out and wins Maryborough in 47.12sec off 19m which is less than the novice mark, then the handicapper is more than likely to review their other handicaps, in particular an 800m handicap of 52m.

10 Re: handicaps on Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:44 pm

jknott123


you havn't followed the thread properly mick he hasn't been penalised for this years win at maryboruogh it was last years win!! it appears that some people think if you can run 50/52s for a 400m then you will run sub 2.00s for a half? as a coach i can assure you not all 52s 400m runners will run that time it takes a hell of a lot of hard work to get under 2.00s and pro running is all about getting a mark and winning.why should any runner be penalised on his potential the handicapper allocates a mark and if you win you get penalised accordingly.we see a lot of young runners on inflated marks and thats because of the ridiculous limits

11 Re: handicaps on Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:04 pm

oldman


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It's a piece of piss for every 52sec 400m runner to break 2min for 800m if they are a speed endurance 400m runner, as opposed to a sprinter 400m runner, even so I would hope most 52sec runners these days could still break 2min, take them out in 60 sec flat first lap which should feel very easy for the 52sec runner and I'd hope they could run 59.95 2nd lap, that's just for the sake of the argument of course

12 Re: handicaps on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:03 pm

ToM

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This thread gives me the strangest sense of déjà vu.

http://protrack.easyforumlive.com/t2638-marybourgh-results

13 Re: handicaps on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:43 pm

Double Jeopardy


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ProTrack A Grader
Surprised no one has mentioned that the runner in question managed to run 1.51.8 off 52m at Stawell last season.

What was the winning time at St. Albans again?

14 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:52 am

Mick The Rex

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ProTrack A Grader
Interesting observation DJ, it seems we have a case of double standards!
Mr Knott wants to get stuck into cagey old vets for running around collecting ticks, yet it seems its okay for young runners to do so?

15 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:01 am

jknott123


good pick up double jeopardy, 5 of the finalists at st albans ran under 1.55s at stawell last year one even ran 1.52s how many got pulled 10m?
no rex i dont have double standards my runners win where they can if you check the records look at this seasons results the double standards are when a young guy gets pulled and as i said the cagey vets just keep getting lifts

16 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:10 am

Graeme Lebroy


Its an interesting conundrum....surely the Stawell 800 winner was not racing in that event at St albans (or Rye for that matter). If they were then they should have to answer some serious questions from the stewards come April...but if any of those runners did manage to find 9-10 seconds improvement I bet the questions dont get asked.

17 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:20 am

Double Jeopardy


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I think you've missed the point Knotty.

A 40 year old who runs 1.52 isn't going to come out and suddenly run 1.48 the following season off the same mark. They don't have the potential for improvement to make the handicapper look silly. A 20 year old that runs 1.51.8 has a very good chance of improving five seconds within 12 months. The handicapper is rightfully more circumspect.

Don't come on here claiming he can't run a decent 800m when he proved he was capable at Stawell last season. You do him no favours by causing all this attention.

18 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:34 am

Guest

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Shouldn't this be a private discussion between coach and handicapper? If you go about these things in the right way you will be find they are often quite reasonable.

19 Re: handicaps on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:38 pm

DizzyRunner


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At the end of the day, an 800m race is a game of inches, and it always comes down to the wire. In those real pressure-cooker races, where you've got an 18year old and a Vet in a serious nail-biter, the fans will be on their feet.

Knotty will know the difference a week makes, and Double Jeopardy will feel the electricity in his bones. It's a shame someone has to lose.

Of course, Stawell has been mentioned in this post, and that's a whole new ball game. Will the kid get within striking distance before going down at the last hurdle? Or will the Vet stumble at the line?

Either way, the competitive juices will be flowing, and something as simple as a coach screaming from the sidelines could turn the tide.

They say you win as a team, and you lose as a team, and this might explain some of the passions seen here today. But statistics can be misleading, and intangibles key. Racing is always a tough place to play.

It's gonna be a war out there.

Dizzy out.

20 Re: handicaps on Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:41 pm

Mex

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I think someone needs to take the keyboard away from Mr Knott Smile

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