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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit

Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit

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1 Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:52 am

The Morphy Mongrel

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The womens 120m was a good final to watch but it was lacking quality, with the red off 10.00m.
No runner behind 10.00 in a field of 75 says to me the marks are too inflated.  I think the limit should be reduced to 12.00m. I notice thats theres a 12m limit in Burnie and they only got 22 runners.

15.00m limit is too much for the Womens Bay. Time to come back to 12.

2 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:38 pm

Guest

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It was a good final to watch but it lacked quality, which one was it?
I dont have what the cost is to enter the womens 120 at the bay but lets assume its $30. If you have a limit and only got 22 entered the league gets $660 from noms as opposed to $2250 for the 75 who entered. Understandably there needs to be a balance between quality and quantity. Personally I dont see how 75 athletes handicapped out to 15m renders the field lacking in quality, where 22 athletes handicapped out to 10m makes it sooo much more special?
No-one behind 10m in the final suggests either the conditions favoured the front markers or the handicapper was too kind to them or to tough on the back markers?
You guys that think having 22 turn up to an event is somehow better than 75, run an event and try sell it to a sponsor. I tell you 16 entered in the TTG 200 m open is embarrassing, imagine only 6 more entered into an event where the prize money is 000's and sponsor has paid 000's. Sponsors want some bang for their buck, with limits, the Bay would be run and won in a day, Boring!

The spirit for which handicapped racing is all about, is lost on this forum. Check out the SAAL website under "about the league" "FAQ" just like the results page on the SAAL website it hasn't changed for years (dig,dig) and still states the same thing as followed:

WHAT IS HANDICAPPED RUNNING?
In handicap running, competitors start at different positions on the track dependant upon their ability. The backmarker is generally the more naturally gifted athlete and starts behind everyone else. The handicaps are designed to even up the competition just like horse racing so that the running is more fascinating and unpredictable and gives everyone a chance. Athletes such as Joshua Ross, Steve Brimacombe, Brad Jamieson, Mark Ormrod, Nova Peris and Tamsyn Lewis have overcome large handicap starts to win in South Australian Athletic League events and used the sport to enhance their way to represent Australia.
No mention about limits!!!!!

3 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:08 am

Matenga


It did look a bit silly. No direspect to these girls as they did everything necessary to make the final with what they were given. Such is the game. Although I do wonder how the likes of Hubbard or Wrench-Doody would have reacted if they made the final and the girl in white is 8/9m in front of them!

Anyway, I still think these female marks are rather inflated. I honestly agree with Morphy and think they should move the limit to 12. This is a big Gift, i dont understand why the women need special treatment compared to the men who make do with 11. They all run the 120 distance!

And if these frontmarkers are gonna complain about it then give them a frontmarkers race at the end!

Relative to their marks these backmarker girls have to be in PB shape to make the Bay final and even then they might not win it. And by 'PB shape' im talking these girls have to be in 'National 100m finalist/medallist' shape just based off their mark. Thats a tough task and huge credits to their coaches if they can achieve that. So at least let these girls get somewhere near these frontmarkers!



Last edited by Matenga on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:35 am; edited 2 times in total

4 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:09 am

CS


The limit at Bay is fine. I am a female backmarker and I think the limit is fine. Leave it. When no women run people say, let's scrap the womens races, then when 75 women run people say the limit is too big... Go back to the 2009 results, only one girl in the final was in double digits in the marks, the rest were behind 7. Look at the 2007 final, when again, only one girl in the final had a double digit mark. There were still around 50-60 entries in these years, with almost half of the field in double digit marks. Ebs and flows people.

5 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:25 am

The Morphy Mongrel

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Over 35'er  -give him an inch and he takes 10m. All the athletes  mentioned in your quote were class backmarkers who won classic races. Doesn't mention runners off 11 or 15 now does it.
I meant good race as in close. That's where it stops.
Dissect the actual field and it was ordinary by the standards of a classic race. No one behind 10m is ridiculous for a classic final.
The reason I mentioned Burnie was they haven't compromised the event by extending the limit to cater for a few more hacks.
There's plenty of women's races for girls who can't run 13secs for the 100. Having a 12m limit means you must be a good athlete to win it and it would make the handicapper's job a whole lot easier

Can someone explain why The Bay Sheffield limit is 11m and the women's  is 15m? I've never understood the difference.

6 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:11 am

CS


Morphy Mongrel - assume the female limit was 12 for the Bay just gone. You only knock out one athlete in the 2013 final? Would that make for better racing? Really? Leave it alone.

7 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:45 am

Matenga


Out of curiosity CS are you a genuine female 'backmarker' or actually a 'middle marker' calling herself a 'backmarker' because the marks are so inflated?

8 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:54 am

CS


Depends on the state Matenga - lets just say I would still get a run if the limit was 7 (in SA) and 5 in VIC/TAS - does that help you?

9 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:53 pm

The Morphy Mongrel

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Fair enough CS. If you are an athlete from behind 7 in SA then you are backmarker and your opinion is respected.

There were only 19 (from 75) behind 8.0, so the remedy might be to pull the field back 2.0 across the board. Keep the 15 limit but have an athlete off scratch. 31 were behind 10m and 44 on 10 or more. My opinion is at least half the field should be behind the 10m mark.
If the womens Bay field all went back 2, there would have been 47 athletes on less than 10.

10 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:12 pm

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Morph, the quote was made as excerpt from the SAAL website, they mention those names due to their achievements to create interest. If they used names of "hacks" as you put it, it would hardly sell the product that is pro racing.
Interesting that an opinion on this subject only counts if you are a backmarker?
And to all that run off 10m or more you are all hacks, apparently, and should be relegated to another race with significantly less prize money?

11 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:52 pm

Whispers


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GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT A START LOOKS LIKE WHEN SOME ONE HAS TO GIVE 8 METRES START TO SOMEONE ELSE

12 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:11 pm

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It quite clearly looks ridiculous. The thing is it does happen, its the point of handicap racing, any number of scenarios are possible at any meet no just the big ones, but it seems its only the big ones where back markers and coaches of back markers have a boo hoo. maybe if they didn't put all of their eggs into one basket they wouldn't feel so hard done by.
Imagine an over 35's race where Timmy J is off scratch and the rest of the field was of 20m+ now that would look even funnier, it is possible! Would we hear any nonsense about limits then?

13 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Trumpet

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As soon as a limit is metioned take a look in the mirror over35er and you'll see the person having a boo hoo.

14 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:31 pm

Matenga


over35er wrote: it seems its only the big ones where back markers and coaches of back markers have a boo hoo.

I dont think you realise how hard it is for some of these girls. Do you have any idea how hard it is to maintain a sub 12 second shape (over 100m), or even get to that shape? Yet some of these girls can happily hover around the 13 second mark and easily keep making finals and winning money because their marks are huge!

I can give you examples of said girls who I have never seen on a one digit handicap... and yet they have accumulated more money and made more finals then i can count! Is that really fair? Its about time some of these girls got brought back! The handicaps need a reset.

15 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:11 am

The Morphy Mongrel

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Over 35er, if you have gotten the impression I don't respect your opinion because you have never experienced what it's like to be a backmarkers in a Classic gift, you are right.
The biggest whingers about limits are always those who need them to be generous to be competitive.

16 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:32 am

S.hill


The Morphy Mongrel wrote: Over 35er, if you have gotten the impression I don't respect your opinion because you have never experienced what it's like to be a backmarkers in a Classic gift, you are right.
The biggest whingers about limits are always those who need them to be generous to be competitive.
Says the guy whinging about limits ..... lol!  affraid  Idea  Embarassed

17 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:01 am

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Says the guy who is whinging about the need for a limit in the 120m womens Bay event?? The trouble with you hot shots that think you are gods gift to running is you have lost the essence for what handicap racing is and want the spoils all for yourselves.
You win a classic and somehow that makes your opinion the only one that counts?
Put a limit an all events then, cut out half the field, have no substitute races for front markers because there simply arent enough sponsor $$ to go around and you will end up with, very little.
Its not what the league wants, its not what the majority of athlete's want, Im sure its not what the sponsors want, so take your narrow mindedness and play somewhere else if you dont like it!
If you want to see the top 8 race off each week go to Santos! No handicaps, no limits, no front markers, sounds like that comp will be more to your liking, although you wont win any of the hard earned sponsors $$ for which you should so deservingly get, over anyone else.  Sleep 

18 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:29 pm

Trumpet

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To many people just train and let the handicapper push them out to get competitive. If there is a limit tuff titties train to win off that limit. Besides it is really only in classics that it disadvantages a few. The womens marks are to inflated. Train to get faster and not just wait for lifts.

19 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:37 pm

Rookie


This is up there with the dumbest argument I have seen.

Agree with over35er. Morphy if you want all back markers in a race take your high horse to santos watch them run and watch the same person win all the time.

CS seems to be a female back marker who makes perfectly valid points and has no problem with the limit the way it is yet your still arguing the point?

Women's marks at times do seem inflated but perhaps that's more of a handicapping problem rather than a problem with limits or training.
You can only train as hard as you are capable and if you aren't born with the natural ability of someone like josh Ross or cathy freeman then your supposed to just give up and not compete? No you join a league which gives everyone a fair go. Is that not what handicap racing is about?


Regardless of marks if its a good tight race then who cares if the limit is 15m or 5m.

20 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:57 pm

Trumpet

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Yeah that's fair enough rookie because you're not josh ross or cathy freeman just don't try and get stronger or faster let the handicapper do it for you.

This argument isn't about all backmarkers being in the race. It's about the womens race at the bay having a limit of 12-13 instead of 15.

21 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:11 pm

S.hill


So if everyone trains a little harder and gets a little stronger they will be as good as josh Ross ....
Shit I'll quit my job and claim I'm going to rio Wink

Josh Ross wins off scratch one year,
Misplehorn from the middle,
Then maybe this year someone wins off the limit
Let's watch you cry and say the limit should be brought back to 10

22 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:18 pm

Rookie


I never said the handicapper should do it for them but if your a runner who trains hard and runs their guts out every race and to be competitive in a race needs a handicap around the 17m mark.
Who's to say they are less worthy to run in a high profile PRO race like the bay where they already have a big ask coming back to 15m and you want to pull them back to 12m why would they bother?
Because its not as good a spectacle having 6 finalists off 10m-15m?
As I said who cares what the start looks like as long as its a good race to watch.

23 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:34 pm

The Morphy Mongrel

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Talk about miscontrueing an argument to push your own agenda.
I was only suggesting with the quality of the women's Bay Sheff growing like it has, may be its time for the limit to be reduced to 12m?
For that I'm all of a sudden I'm an elitist who should keep away from pro running?

What a dumb judgement.

cjudd - The Bay Sheff limit is 11.0 and will always remain so - unless thle likes of you, Over 35er and Rookie get some power then we'll have it out to 18m or what ever you need to make a final.

A respectable limit is what separates a Classic from the rest. That has always been the way in pro-running.
Some people need an education about this sport before shooting their mouths off.

24 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:36 pm

S.hill


I don't want the limit moved at all when did I say that?
Just stay the same it is what it is, deal with it.

25 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:40 pm

The Morphy Mongrel

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And I never said the Bay Sheff limit should be 10m either. But you assert that's what I want.

26 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:46 pm

Rookie


The only one pushing their own agenda here is you my friend. The only person wanting a change is you and that includes testimony from a female athlete who is fine with things how they are.

27 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:49 pm

Whispers


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History of the Womens Bay 120m shows more single digit handicaps have won than double digits.
Winner in 2002 won the event off 15.5m, so it seems at some stage the limit was more than it is now.

IN THE HISTORY OF THE EVENT ONLY 3 WINNERS HAVE WON OFF HANDICAPS MORE THAN 11.5M
So ,agree with 0VER 35er leave the limit alone.

28 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:51 pm

S.hill


You said you want the women's one changed?
I just used a male example in saying that a back marker won last year a middle marker this year and a front marker may win next year. 
It's how it works

Stop ya whinging and train harder to beat the front markers Wink

29 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:54 pm

S.hill


There ya go morphs
Facts just solved this argument
Well done whispers

30 Re: Women's 120m at Bay Sheffield Limit on Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:17 pm

The Morphy Mongrel

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The definition of IRONY - A front marker (who trains what, twice per week?)....telling a backmarker to train harder.
That's funny.

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