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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped

Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped

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1 Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:31 pm

Red leg


I know a lot of people wont like this post but surely It is time for Women's distance events to be scrapped or merged with the vets? The last two that have been run at Hectorville & Loxton have made a joke out of the sport with 9 and 6 athletes competing in the 800 & 1000 respectively. It is a joke that the women's k was worth over 3 times the vets race last night when we get dished up the rubbish we did last night (ie 6 competitors) I am not knocking the athletes that competed last night thy re all super for making the effort to gt up to loxton and each one of them races every week but the administators who keep pouring money into events that just aren't supported! Sponsorship money could be much better spent in my opinion!

Whispers


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They actually did have combined events in 2002,2003 and 2004 at Loxton and the numbers were 12,9 and 12
Since 2004 ,the girls numbers have been 8,6,9,12,9,7,11,8 and this year 6.
Without being great I reckon the numbers are holding up reasonably well and we cant judge it all on one year.
For me to watch the RED runner wear down the leaders and see Cheryl come again to grab 2nd spot made it a interesting race to watch even though there were only 6 runners.There were a couple of runners in this race that ran well below their best and IF they had performed it could have been a thriller.

Red leg


Whispers since 2004 that is an average of less that 8 athletes per year. In my opinion that is probably not justification for having a $1k race for them. Agreed the winner ran a super race (and did last week as well for that matter) but once she had crossed the line the interest for me had long dissipated. I tend to think the vets who race for little financial reward most weeks would be money better spent on the night!

Damo

Whispers


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Less than 3 seconds separated the first three girls in the 1000m.
What more do you want in a race.
As for the 0ver 35 1000m , I watched the winner go over the line went to the toilet for a pee and came out and watched the last 0ver 35 runner go over the line.
Sponsors love close finishes.
By the way Red Leg, thank goodness you arent in charge of horse racing or else we would never see Black Caviar race again as the fields are too small.

Red leg


Whispers I think you will find that the reason Black Cavier runs against small fields is because the other owners and trainers are too scared to take on Black Cavier as the result is inevitable as opposed to a simple lack of interest.
I hardly think any of the athletes that ran the women’s 1km would strike that sort of fear into their competitors (no disrespect to any of those that competed).
I ran in the Ballarat mile a couple of weeks ago and the Stonnington mile on Friday night where we had 55 and 45 or so competitor’s respectively in each race and they were some of the best races i have ever run in.
I am sure sponsors would like to see big fields with close racing as opposed to small fields with close racing every day of the week.

Whispers


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So from what you are saying Red Leg ,this year may be the last season we see the womens distance event at your home carnival.
With numbers of 7,4,8,11,5 and 7 over the last few seasons maybe a 550m womens races may work better.

Red leg


These are my opinions not that of my stable. I am not aware what the organising committee of the Mackinnon Parade meet has in store for the scheduling of events in the future.

My argument is that I cant understand how the organising commitee of loxton can keep throwing money at a certain event that isnt suppported by the athletes.

Switching the prizemoney for the vets and womens would be much better in my opinion. The vets travel to every meet and deserve a race of note on the calender every now and then.

But of course is not my cash that is being put up so it really doesnt matter what i think!

Whispers


ProTrack Star
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Eligibility to enter Races if an Athlete registers under the Women's Category

An athlete who registers under the Women's category can enter all
Women's races, as well as Under 20 / 17 races (if she is Under 20 / 17) or Over 35 / 45 races (if she is Over 35 / 45). She cannot enter Open and Novice races.

Under the rules of the SAAL unless the women athlete has registered as an Open athlete they would be unable to run in an OVER35 /WOMENS event unless over 35.
Perhaps as REDLEG suggests ,because of lack of support the 1000m womens needs to go and perhaps we could put in consolation 300m races instead.
Would take no more time and the money from the 1000m womens could be equally shared to cover both consolations.
Crowd under the tent would appreciate two more close to the action close finishes.Sponsors would get bang for bucks.
What do you think Redleg.

keeprunning12


As an under 20 athlete who raced in a field of 6 in the 1000 on the weekend, i want the womens, junior and vets to stay as is. I only get a few limited opportunities each season to compete against people my own age insted of the likes of Kilmier, Hyde, Crawford etc. It leaves you a much better chance both mentally and physically to have a good run. Someone like Lloyd, McMahon and Hyde in the womens deserve the opportunity to chase down frontmarkers rather than just be a bunny for the men in open.

Unfortunately, the main reason there isnt more high quality distance women and juniors in pros is because we are always just a side event to the gift. With the exception of maybe the flinders 3200 or mckinnon 1600 which are both open!

SA is going through an awesome phase of distance running, look at the world xc trials and times out at santos. Encourage distance running at pros with more money for women and junior and there will be no 'waste of prizemoney' when one decent pool is offered.

10 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:40 pm

Red leg


Agree to disagree! If it was my cash being put up it wouldn't be going to a women's distance event I will give you the hot tip! In respect to this "awesome phase of distance running in sa" it will be interesting to see how many south Australians medal at the forthcoming National Championships let alone final. My estimates suggests not too many! Yes there have been some awesome performances of late McMahon at Zatopek & World Cross Trials, Palm at World Cross Trials, Holliday at Oceania Waliking Champs in Hobart on Sunday to qualify for World Champs in Moscow later in the year, Brycey at Briggs on the weekend and Pb the weekend before and Trengrove at the Olympics but apart from that quality athletes drop off fairly quickly unfortunately... Would like to see some evidence of some " awesome times" at santos recently!

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
Just wondering Redleg why you are knocking the womens 1000m race and not also the under age 1000m as well where your stable made up half the field of SIX.
Recent times have seen the under age race with numbers 9,6,7,7,6.
Hardly sponsor material.
Just wondering why the girls are the only ones coming under attack.
Numbers for the under age just arent stacking up since they got rid of the novice 1000 for the same reason.

Red leg


Whispers have a look at the prizemoney on offer for the u/20's race as compared to the womens race and then come back to me with why you think I am only knocking the women.

racingmania


This is amazing. two guys from the same stable debating womens distance races and prizemoney. Maybe sort it at training? or don't these guys speak at training? \good reading. Twisted Evil

Red leg


Keep Running 12 I have done a bit of investigating into the so called “awesome phase of distance running in South Australia at present” and as I suspected it doesn’t make for pretty reading. Based on the Australian Ranking List 2012 (Rankings taken from 1st of January to 31st of December, compiled by Paul Jenes AA Statistician) the top ranked South Australian in each of the distance categories is:
Men
800m
26th 1.50.87 Andy Giam S 221289 4r1 Brisbane 14-Jan

1500m
41st 3.48.99 Rhys Jones S 070291 6h1 Melbourne 14-Apr

3000m
24th 8.19.14 Chris Hartley S 131083 1 Adelaide 9-Mar

5000m
34th 14.35.22 Rhys Jones S 070291 11 Melbourne 22-Nov

10000m
26th 30.55.67 Paul Morgan S 100383 17 Melbourne 8-Dec

Half Marathon
30th 1:07.45.0 Craig Knowles S 210485 15 Gold Coast 30-Jun

Marathon
None in top 40
3000m Steeplechase
13th 9.13.25 Jacob Cocks S 190594 1 Adelaide 19-Feb

Women
800m
10th 2.05.03 Rosie Kelly S 061189 3 Melbourne 15-Apr

1500m
22nd 4.26.80 Paige Graham S 080889 1 Adelaide 24-Feb

3000m
12th 9.38.03 Paige Graham S 080889 5 Sydney 10-Nov

5000m
7th 16.02.62 Jessica Trengove S 150887 3 Adelaide 28-Jan

10000m
4th 33.36.77 Jessica Trengove S 150887 4 Melbourne 8-Dec

Half Marathon
5th 1:15.15.0 Jessica Trengove S 150887 - Nagoya, Japan 11-Mar

Marathon
3rd 2:31.02.0 Jessica Trengove S 150887 14 Nagoya, Japan 11-Mar

3000m Steeplechase
5th 10.22.55 Tessa Potezny S 180594 4h2 Barcelona, Spain 10-Jul

So in summary take out Jess Trengove and we would only have 1 finalist based on rankings and that is Tessa Potezny in the Women’s Steeplechase.
I must add that the people I have mentioned are all 10 times the runner that I am or ever will be, I just think that outlandish statements such as “we are in an awesome phase of distance running in South Australia at present” doesn’t do justice to the current environment.

15 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:52 am

Guest

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Good topic!

I would say that right now, while SA distance running isn't 'outstanding' right now, surely you would say it's heading in the right direction redleg?

The 1000m event is a tough one to get numbers for. The women's program has both the gift and the 300m, and pretty well this time of year (just after camden) the girls will double up with a 120/300. I can look at the 300m fields, and I can potentially see maybe 6-7 girls that could easily step up to the 1000m event and be competitive. However this does not happen, as Loxton puts on a decent female gift, and probably a better female 300m. Besides flinders, there are not many 'pro stables' that have female distance running groups? Mckinnon, Camden and maybe Flagstaff fill the gaps. In the men's 1000m race, there were plenty of runners who I often see run the 400-800m events 'step up to the 1000m' instead of go down to the 300m event. Perhaps coaches should encourage their 'femaler' athletes to train for a chase the 1000m (or other middle distance events)?

In SA however, I would say female distance running is probably the best quality right now? At the adelaide track classic, I was much more interested in the 5000m womens than any other event. Jess Trengove (2.31 marathon), Tara Palm (15.52 5k runner), Tassy Mcmahon (open cross trials champ) and Tessa (world junior rep over 3k steeple). 3 out of the 4 girls have never run a pro event. The 4th is out training for the worlds in Poland instead of running in Loxton (fair enough too). However if they did compete, it would be the best event on the program? I would say the only way to get the numbers up in the female distance events in the SAAL would be to get 'pro stables' to promote their female athletes to give it a crack and perhaps train for the events? I understand this is tough especially when you can run a good 300 of just gift training, it's easier just to do that.

I spoke to Jane mudge during the night and she reminded me of when they use to have a 1000m A and B race at loxton (ie frontmarkers and backmarkers race)? I don't remember if that was so athletes did not have to run heat and final or was to place the females in with the frontmarkers mens race (with O35's also)? I personally like the heat and final for the Men's open 1km since if gives the guys doing 'real distance work' a better opportunity to win the final (as they will normally back up better - for example Andy Axford [3.56 for 1500m this year]). While the womens 1000m is weak, it could be potentially quite a strong event, it just takes a couple brave girls to step up and do the work, and some coaches to promote this to happen.

Red Leg I reckon you can throw Matt ferber into your stats (3.51 and national 1500m finalist), Bryce watkins (winner of briggs 800m), perhaps young harry may (who broke 1.52 in the last 2-3 years), Isabelle Scott (junior running around 4.31 in 1500) and Tara Palm (world cross rep). I would say at least distance running is heading in the right 'direction', even if it's not heading there in there in the pros.

Final note, I sponsored the 300m junior race at Loxton. It's a great event! The first year I sponsored it I remember Sam Osmond winning off the backmark and winning athlete of the meet for the run. However, if Tara, Jess, Tessa, Paige, Isabel, Tasmin, Mel Lloyd, Kate Didyk, Gemma Plummer all decided to run a 1600m select equivalent race....I know what race I'd be sponsoring instead of the junior 300 at Loxton

16 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:56 am

Red leg


Respect your thoughts Nittaz!! SA Distance running definatly on the improve. Escpecially the females.

17 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:04 pm

keeprunning12


Thats what i meant by awesome, sorry to confuse someone! Knew nittaz would come into this!

18 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:28 pm

youngy

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Admin
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Red leg wrote:Keep Running 12 I have done a bit of investigating into the so called “awesome phase of distance running in South Australia at present” and as I suspected it doesn’t make for pretty reading. Based on the Australian Ranking List 2012 (Rankings taken from 1st of January to 31st of December, compiled by Paul Jenes AA Statistician) the top ranked South Australian in each of the distance categories is:
Men
800m
26th 1.50.87 Andy Giam S 221289 4r1 Brisbane 14-Jan

1500m
41st 3.48.99 Rhys Jones S 070291 6h1 Melbourne 14-Apr

3000m
24th 8.19.14 Chris Hartley S 131083 1 Adelaide 9-Mar

5000m
34th 14.35.22 Rhys Jones S 070291 11 Melbourne 22-Nov

10000m
26th 30.55.67 Paul Morgan S 100383 17 Melbourne 8-Dec

Half Marathon
30th 1:07.45.0 Craig Knowles S 210485 15 Gold Coast 30-Jun

Marathon
None in top 40
3000m Steeplechase
13th 9.13.25 Jacob Cocks S 190594 1 Adelaide 19-Feb

Women
800m
10th 2.05.03 Rosie Kelly S 061189 3 Melbourne 15-Apr

1500m
22nd 4.26.80 Paige Graham S 080889 1 Adelaide 24-Feb

3000m
12th 9.38.03 Paige Graham S 080889 5 Sydney 10-Nov

5000m
7th 16.02.62 Jessica Trengove S 150887 3 Adelaide 28-Jan

10000m
4th 33.36.77 Jessica Trengove S 150887 4 Melbourne 8-Dec

Half Marathon
5th 1:15.15.0 Jessica Trengove S 150887 - Nagoya, Japan 11-Mar

Marathon
3rd 2:31.02.0 Jessica Trengove S 150887 14 Nagoya, Japan 11-Mar

3000m Steeplechase
5th 10.22.55 Tessa Potezny S 180594 4h2 Barcelona, Spain 10-Jul

So in summary take out Jess Trengove and we would only have 1 finalist based on rankings and that is Tessa Potezny in the Women’s Steeplechase.
I must add that the people I have mentioned are all 10 times the runner that I am or ever will be, I just think that outlandish statements such as “we are in an awesome phase of distance running in South Australia at present” doesn’t do justice to the current environment.


Thanks for adding some real perspective based on facts, Red Leg. Appreciate the effort you've gone to to prove your point.

In respect to the 800m, SA has had only one athlete break 1-50 in the last 10 years. It's pitiful how we talk athletes up who can't even break 1-50 or 3-50, but that's the acceptance of mediocrity that happens in Adelaide.

The malaise is not just confined to distance events. The sprints are just as bad and in some cases such as the 400m it's the worst it's been for decades. Five years ago SA boasted 5 sub 47.10 400m runners - Ormrod, Tippins, Landers, Watkins & Bubner. Today we have none. As much as Clay Watkins had a good win on the weekend, albeit in a softish Loxton Gift field, he hasn't run an amateur 400m for over a year. So Clay aside, SA really doesn't have anyone coming through who comes close to a national qualifier of 48.34. None of our 400m reps at the ATC could break 50secs. Yes the potential is out there, but sadly, rarely does any of it materialise to a standard that is competitive on the national stage.


_________________
"Let's Go While We're Young"

Guest

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I'm not going to quote the ^^^ post, as I know that gets me into strife!

We have had both Boden and Giam break 1.50 for the 800m. Giam was living and training in SA (this is now his 6th year here).

AS for not many runners breaking 50 seconds in the 400m. I ran 50.7 for a 400m in Knox, entered Camden and got pretty well smashed by a fair few guys (including SA runners) who started behind me. I'm sure if everyone who entered camden, entered this weeks ASA state titles, we would probably have a fair few runners breaking 50 seconds. However, like the SAAL offers nothing for runners like Jess Trengove, Tara Palm and Tessa Potezny...I guess people will argue that running 49 seconds in the ASA meets is hardly worth registering for either, even though a few people probably would run the amateurs quite well over 200-800m (who run the pros). Saliu, Watkins, Giam, May, and B watkins would all break 50 for a 400m (infact Giam, Bryce and May have done this already sometime earlier this season). Perhaps 2-3 of them would get close to the 48.14 mark also.

A few runners like Matt Ferber have decided to aim for breaking targets like 3.50 now after being so good in the SAAL races. This is great to see, and should be encouraged. I'm sure others will follow his lead. With young coaches like Didyk, Bosch and Hane taking new roles on, I am sure we are soon see the likes of Bryce go under 1.50 for 800m (who was very close at ATC), it's only a matter of time and getting the right races.

Reagrdless of the male middle distance running results over the last 10 years, it shouldn't take away from how well the SA female distance runners are going. 1 x olympian, 2 x world cross representatives and 1 x world junior rep.

Trackstar

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Talking up 49s 4 athletes! HAS it got that bad in SA?
49s for a 4 aint competitive nationally.
Can't break 48 not worth talking about.
Love how you SA guys claim anyone who moves across the border for work/study. Andy Giam was a Vic coached by a Vic, living in SA. Ran for Old Melburnians when he was ran 1/49.

Spiderman

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State Champ Results 2013
Men 400 Metre Dash OPEN
Section 1
1 235 Sam Russell Salisbury 49.98
2 15 Brett Fisk Port Adelaide 50.28
3 375 Angus Brock St Peters Co 50.44
4 178 Frankie Schinella Western Districts 50.67
5 287 Sam Osmond Port Adelaide 50.68
6 531 Stephen Alexander Flinders 51.07
7 483 Jonathon Sinclair Tea Tree Gully 52.35
8 573 Matthew Sinclair Tea Tree Gully 52.36
9 547 Joshua Ware Salisbury 52.57

SA is in a world of hurt when it comes to Men's Track! A state title won in 49.98! The individuals that didnt run at your states are either out of form over the distance or not training for it. This is why you guys cop it like you do. The depth and quality of athletes is dismal compared to other states. Imagine how SA would go RIGHT NOW in a National 4 x400m relay against the other states. Laughable!

Red leg


Thanks Spiderman for some reason I now feel quite vindicated. Although concerned at the same time with the direction of athletics in this state at prsent!

S.hill


On a side note
Talk about evenly matched twins
.01 separating them

Guest

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Spiderman wrote:State Champ Results 2013
Men 400 Metre Dash OPEN
Section 1
1 235 Sam Russell Salisbury 49.98
2 15 Brett Fisk Port Adelaide 50.28
3 375 Angus Brock St Peters Co 50.44
4 178 Frankie Schinella Western Districts 50.67
5 287 Sam Osmond Port Adelaide 50.68
6 531 Stephen Alexander Flinders 51.07
7 483 Jonathon Sinclair Tea Tree Gully 52.35
8 573 Matthew Sinclair Tea Tree Gully 52.36
9 547 Joshua Ware Salisbury 52.57

SA is in a world of hurt when it comes to Men's Track! A state title won in 49.98! The individuals that didnt run at your states are either out of form over the distance or not training for it. This is why you guys cop it like you do. The depth and quality of athletes is dismal compared to other states. Imagine how SA would go RIGHT NOW in a National 4 x400m relay against the other states. Laughable!



Spiderman....this is just the same repeated issue being stated over and over. There are plenty of runners (that just chose to run other events or who missed the state titles) who would have done quite well over the 400m. I will name them: Clay watkins (who ran 100/200), Andrew Giam (who's training this year was aimed at 1500 [who ran a pb over the distance]), Alex Saliu (has run 48's), Harry May (chose the 800m the next day), Bryce Watkins (running Sydney track classic instead of ASA titles) and Alex Bubner (who chose the 100m). These 6 guys all racing, all of a sudden make the 400m not look as bad. Now I am not saying that it's still top quality...I'm just saying in this particular race at Santos, none of these guys raced (whether it be cause they did not train for it or not can't be said without asking why they didn't compete).

However, as noted previously. There are probably many guys who just run the pros who could have also raced the 400m state titles and 'perhaps' they would have lifted the standard of the race? There are plenty of people stating how low the standard of athletics is here in SA, and definitely using the '400m' as standard. Yet you go to the long distance events for the women and we have 3 of Adam Didyk's athletes running at the Sydney Track Classic (1500 and 5km), and it is going pretty strong.

Spiderman

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When we talk 400m quality we talk sub 48 as the bare minimum. Obviously Watkins and Bubner have done this but that is it. I ask you why the two best Juniors a few years ago in the state chose not to run the 400m? Is it because at the moment their training program can not accommodate for the level of intensity required to run a decent 400m? These guys have made National Finals and run at Track Classics so why has their performance dropped away? These lads should ask themselves that very question. SA need them running well at a national level. They need to change something because things have not been working for both of them for a little while now, but I'm sure they would no that. lets hope they do change something!

Guest

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Well considering this thread is about Women's distance running, perhaps you need to start another thread? Or better yet, maybe ask Clay and Bubner why they chose not to run the 400? I'm sure they're pretty easy to contact? Or is this a way to have an 'indirect' crack at a few athletes who you have absolutely no idea about their personal circumstances, training rgimes/goals or things outside of training?

Spiderman

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perhaps you should start a new thread as you were the one that brought the mens results into this thread. I'm not having an indirect crack at anyone, thats just a cop out by you because facts speak for themselves. Yes other things can impact running, hence why I said they need to change something. From what I heard at the Bay, Bubner is not associated with a particular squad so maybe that is something he can look at. Although not knowing Watkins very well, I am sure he would rather be competing against the country's best in 400m rather than battling for the 100m SA state title.

The Morphy Mongrel

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Spiderman. thanks you hit the nail on the head.
I'm with you spider. We need more people concerned, pissed off with the standard than making bullshit excuses. Go on facts, not ifs and buts. facts - 49.98 in ideal condtions is rubbish.
Robb moving camps is the tip of the iceberg. others, will be looking elsewhere is my tip. Including some of our best men runners.

Whispers


ProTrack Star
ProTrack Star
SA will remain in the darkness in shorter distance events for as long as the States best juniors are syphoned off in their early teens by FIGJAM coaches who ruin the talent and dont pass the athletes on to more acredited coaches.I could name at least half dozen but wont for fear of getting a private message from Admin.
Ask Youngy or Butler or Tamo when is the last time that they have had an athlete referred to them by these junior COACHES.
Ive been close enough to listen to the crap that is told to parents.
SA has a developement squad, WHERE AND WHO WITH DO ALL THESE ATHLETES END UP.

30 Re: Women's Distance Events need to be scrapped on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:13 pm

ToM

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Open Vic Champs, for comparison.

Event 17 Men 400 Meter Run Open
================================================================
Name Year Team Semis
================================================================
Heat 1 Semi-Finals
1 2588 Beltrame, Michael 91 OLD XAVERIAN 47.96Q
2 5273 Boudrie, Andrew 85 ATHLETICS ESSENDON 48.19Q
3 2921 Wurm, Ollie 90 OLD MELBURNI 48.28Q
4 2997 White-Alikakos, Da 92 BOX HILL ATH 48.38q
5 4562 Reiser, Sam 96 DEAKIN ATHLE 49.20
6 5147 Fitzpatrick, Simon 84 ATHLETICS ESSENDON 49.32
7 2646 Dowsing, Scott 89 KNOX ATHLETIC CLUB 49.54
8 4230 Greco, Luke 93 KNOX ATHLETIC CLUB 49.74
Heat 2 Semi-Finals
1 2642 Hargreaves, Matthe 84 WESTERN ATHLETICS 47.96Q
2 5229 Lawson-Matthews, D 94 DEAKIN ATHLE 48.02Q
3 3542 Rowe, Alexander 92 ST KEVIN'S A 48.23Q
4 57 Rayner, Johnny 93 ATHLETICS ESSENDON 48.65q
5 4858 Robinson, Tristan 94 KNOX ATHLETIC CLUB 48.67
6 2834 Coumaros, Conrad 95 DONCASTER AT 48.73
7 4766 Johns, Will 94 EAST MELBOUR 50.34
8 2688 Tatham, Braydn 94 GLENHUNTLY A 51.98


Event 81 Men 400 Meter Run Open
================================================================
Name Year Team Finals
================================================================
1 2588 Beltrame, Michael 91 OLD XAVERIAN 47.19
2 5273 Boudrie, Andrew 85 ATHLETICS ESSENDON 47.53
3 2642 Hargreaves, Matthe 84 WESTERN ATHLETICS 47.83
4 5229 Lawson-Matthews, D 94 DEAKIN ATHLE 47.93
5 3542 Rowe, Alexander 92 ST KEVIN'S A 48.10
6 57 Rayner, Johnny 93 ATHLETICS ESSENDON 48.36
7 2997 White-Alikakos, Da 92 BOX HILL ATH 48.69

No Sean Wroe, Jarryd Buchan, Joel Bee, or Alex Carew.

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