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PROTRACK » GENERAL » To those of you complaining about handicapping

To those of you complaining about handicapping

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The Sheik

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LIKE the new ECHO feature on the forum.
Cool for now but the novelty will wear off.

Rookie


Stokesy jiminy cricket we get it!!
Nobody is arguing what you are saying in fact I think the majority agree with you but your preaching to the choir man!!
2 things...

1) take it up with the league. They will listen to you and hopefully for all of our benefit they will attempt to try something new.
I have seen friends have troubles with handicapping and myself have had to ask the question before but I did it the right way and the problem was quickly rectified.
2) find a coach who has more interest in your results. Surely the biggest joy of coaching is enjoying success with the people you coach?

We all understand what your saying and from my perspective nobody seems to be having a direct crack at you but maybe just try what timmy j is saying and tell the people who can do something about it!!

The Sheik

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There's an old Arab saying, my father Sheik SirBob use to say.

إذا كان ذاهبا للمطر لرأينا السحب حتى الآن

It sounds like this:
Laww Badda Et Shatteh, La Ghayyamit.

And it means:
If It Was Going To Rain We Would Have Seen The Clouds By Now.

It's not going to "rain" in this forum Stokesy.

Tippo

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Stokesy,

I think the way forward would be to raise your concerns at the SAAL AGM or at the next Management meeting through the runners representative. I'm not sure who that is right now. This way you could seek endorsement of your views and requests through a formal channel.

I think there are a number of obstacles to oversome, some of which you may be able to assist with. Firstly, the SAAL runs on very limited resources. Maintaining the results on the league web page might be something you or another runner could volunteer to help out with.

Secondly, system based handicapping is open to exploitation. When I was running in open events in VAL in the mid 2000's when their system was introduced, interstaters seemed to be disadvantaged by the "tick" process of lifts. If you could find ways to improve on the VAL system based handicapping that was fairer to interstate athletes, that would alleviate some of my concerns (I have others!). To be honest though, I don't know how the VAL handicapping works now.

Third, open-ness and transparency are worthwhile but will require some human resource to create and maintain. Does the SAAL have both the expertise and the human resource available? If not, who might be able to assist?

Lastly, I'm no saint and could offer the League some of my time to help out with such things. Maybe, just maybe, I'll nominate for the League management committee next season...

Dunc

Guest

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Guest
On mentioning that Duncan, I thought about offering to put up the results for the league and keep that upto date, not sure how to do it, but I'm sure it cant be too hard. Not sure if I have quite enough time, might do by next season.
The league really needs to address this, so it would be great for someone to put their hand up.

36 Evolving ideas ... on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:12 am

Stokesy

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ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Hey Tippo and Over35er and all.

Yep.

I have learned a lot from the exchanges here - and I have had some more thoughts.

(a)
SAAL have email address through InterNode, an Adelaide ISP who may be lured into a sponsorship deal.

InterNode have the expertise to quickly implement an online system for the SAAL.
I could help specify/design the system and we could all pitch in to organise testing, data transfers, data entry and data checking.

InterNode would gain advertising/promotion, as well as having a new product which could be marketed to other users such as the VAL.

(b)
When we get the whizz-bang-you-bewt online information system, a lot of things get easier.

The effort to produce MemberShip/Competitor Lists, Calendars, Event Schedules, Entry Lists before Handicaps, Entry Lists with Handicaps, Allocations from Entry Lists to Events, Programs, Results ... all these things when done separately are error prone and labour intensive with multiple entry of the same data ... when integrated the labour/time/errors will all be reduced and there will be capacity to handle larger numbers.

Leon, Garry and all of us would have easy access to history, so that we could see what (for instance) hits were handed out to first and second place getters in the Camden Over35s 400m - this would allow informed decisions and informed debate, leading to increased perceptions of consistency and fairness, with handicappers retaining all or most of their current discretionary powers.

The point I am trying to make is that the history already holds "precedents" (or standard lifts and hits with maybe a lot of variations).

Once the history is accessible, we do not need a lot of new rules, we can just compare today's decisions with past decisions and then we can talk about issues.

The history system could also be made to automatically highlight anomalies, which might help a lot with people who now do not get lifts (due to being over looked).

(c)
Thanks to everyone for their input - please keep it coming.

As I said above, I have learned a lot from these exchanges - and I like the idea of the SAAL expanding in the future, way beyond what seems possible now.

There are lots more people who could benefit from the SAAL.

I reflect on the gifts I have received - physical fitness, the social experiences, the moments of glory, the challenges of many kinds, the spectacular scenes on the track, the ritual of training, the measurable goals of maintaining and even improving performance as I get older.

As I see it, issues are being identified, ideas are evolving and clarifying, so that in time there will be an action plan which meets everyone's needs.

37 live results athletics on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:37 pm

Guest

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Guest
check out nsw athletic championship

live results each session

results via hy tek's they sell programme's for same

Stokesy

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ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Hey BazzaP, thanks for the comment.

Yes, there are software packages out there and maybe one of them is a close fit to a few of SAAL's information systems needs.

Steve Schapel, an old high school mate of mine has taken up residence in New Zealand and makes his living from SportsRunner with database driven sports management software used widely in Australia and NZ.

When I asked him a while back about "off the shelf" solutions for our style of handicap events, he said that "SportsRunner is focussed on team sports, and we do not relate at all to individual pursuit sport such as running, swimming, athletics, etc.".

Your suggestion Hy-Tek seems to be based in Chicago USA and has a flagship product Meet Manager 4.0 for a few hundred bucks ... see http://www.hy-tekltd.com/track-meet-management.html - it does some of what is needed and adds a bunch of "not needed but interesting" ideas ...
like connecting to the trackside timing system and getting times that way?
like connecting to a score board to display results ?

But we have a unique situation, not like USA track and field ...

The "new SAAL system" that we need is best "built from scratch" in my opinion.

And a key part is the secure database with web interface, which InterNode have as their core business.

I reckon a "no frills + no compromise" solution is the way to go.

I like the theme of empowerment, empowering officials and office staff, empowering athletes and coaches.

I also know that everyone can only afford a limited amount of time and that the SAAL has little or no budget for an information systems revolution.

And I reckon that the exercise can be low cost - or maybe even no cost:

- there are clear benefits, savings if you like, through increased productivity and fewer errors ...

- plus there is the foundation for future expansion ...

- plus there is the secure accessible up to date and useful history.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I did a quick list of system components earlier - all of these are no big deal, and can be done as part of a standard reliable e-commerce package with dependable database services and secure internet access for admins and users.

For a proper design exercise, I would need to chat to a few people to confirm my speculations as to how things are done now. Also to chat re ideal solutions and how to get near-ideal solutions happening by next season. Maybe a halfhour chat to maybe a dozen people ...

Then I would spend a few hours preparing some structured software design documents with names like Data Dictionary and Data Flow Diagrams ... then I would try to get InterNode's attention ... the boss there is Simon Hackett who has a fine business and a fine reputation .. I have never met Simon ... I have through the music world met a man who worked at InterNode for much of the rise of the business and may still be there ...

InterNode has rooms full of computers and stuff, they make things happen on the web with reliability and certainty.

InterNode is based in Adelaide and the SAAL is already a customer of InterNode.

Seems worth a try.

Seems to me like I am getting close to an action plan to discuss with the SAAL ...

But what's happening on the track ... just 6 days to the next SAAL carnival at Flagstaff Hill where coach John LeRay always does it with style.

What are the marks in the big money over45s 400m event?

-------------------------
And
What are the marks
in the not so big money over35s 120m event where it might be Stokesy versus TimJ ?

Stokesy defending his win here last year - with updated wardrobe -

TimJ winning sashes from scratch earlier this SAAL season ...

Will Stokesy's back come good for a repeat win at Flagstaff ??

- or will TimJ re kindle early season fire to take the win ???

The mystery ... the suspense ... the drama ...

next Saturday from 4pm at Flagstaff Hill ...

be there

Stokesy

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ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
============= prepared with care - apologies for any errors ==========

Two and a bit years after being hit five metres after coming second in the Camden 2011 Over35s 400m, Stokesy gets a 2m lift, his first lift in six starts.

Two and a bit years after being hit ten metres after a win from 98m in the Camden 2011 Over35s 400m, Debbie DeVizio has had one 4m lift, one lift in six starts.

One and a bit years after being hit six metres after a big win off 98m in the Camden 2012 Over35s 400m, one year after being hit three metres after a big money win off 95m in the Flagstaff 2012 Over35s 400m, Brian Witty gets a 3m lift to 95m, his third lift in five starts, to the same mark as when he won the Flagstaff event last year.


------------------------
Summary

Brian Witty's SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013.
Brian won two big races and his mark went from 81m to 95m (for two starts) to 98m (for one start) then back to 92m (for one start) then up to 95m (for one start) then back to 92m (for one start) then back up to 95m for Flagstaff 2013.

Brian was hit 6m after winning Camden 2012
and had a 3m lift the next start (just four weeks later) .

Brian was hit 3m after winning Flagstaff 2012
and now gets a 3m lift two starts later.

Nett change - plus 11m (81m to 92m) (two wins at Camden 2012 and Flagstaff 2012, seven starts).
Nett change from Hectorville 2011 onwards - minus 3m (95m to 92m) (two wins, six starts).
Nett change from Camden 2012 onwards - minus 6m (98m to 92m) (two wins, four starts).

With Flagstaff 2013 mark of 95m:
Nett change from Camden 2012 onwards minus 3m (98m to 95m) (two wins, five starts)

-------------
Next is Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013 SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history
for Debbie DeVizio who was hit 10m after winning Camden 2011
and had a 4m lift four starts (and just over one year) later .

Nett change minus 6m (98m to 92m) (one win at Camden 2011, six starts)

With Flagstaff 2013 mark of 92m:
Nett change minus 6m (98m to 92m) (one win at Camden 2011, seven starts)

-------------
Next is Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013 SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history
for Brett Stokes who was hit 5m after coming second Camden 2011
and has not had a lift since (four starts and two years later).

Nett change minus 5m (67m to 62m) (no wins, one second at Camden 2011, five starts)

With Flagstaff 2013 mark of 64m:
Nett change minus 3m (67m to 64m) (no wins, one second at Camden 2011, six starts)


====================================================================================

Details

Brian Witty SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history - Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013

Camden Classic Carnival - Feb 6th 2011
Final 7 Brian Witty 3 81.00m 56.32

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 4th 2011
Final 2 Brian Witty 1 95.00m 52.46 plus 14m

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 12th 2011
Final 2 Brian Witty 2 95.00m 51.14

MT GAMBIER GIFT CARNIVAL - Dec 3rd 2011
Brian Witty not entered

CAMDEN CLASSIC CARNIVAL - Feb 5th 2012
Final 1 Brian Witty 3 98.00m 52.50 plus 3m - win

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Feb 17th 2012
Final 2 Brian Witty 2 92.00m 52.71 minus 6m

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 3rd 2012
Final 1 Brian Witty 2 95.00m 52.47 plus 3m - win

Camden Classic Carnival 3rd February 2013
- Brian Witty 92m Scr minus 3m

Hectorville Gift 17th Feb 2013
heat 7 Brian Witty 92m 56.290

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 9th 2013
Brian Witty 95.00m plus 3m



=====================================================================


Debbie DeVizio: SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history - Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013

Camden Classic Carnival - Feb 6th 2011
Final 1 Debbie DeVizio 1 98.00m 52.13 win

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 4th 2011
Heat 8 Debbie DeVizio 4 88.00m 55.76 minus 10m

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 12th 2011
Heat 6 Debbie DeVizio 1 88.00m 57.07

MT GAMBIER GIFT CARNIVAL - Dec 3rd 2011
- Debbie DeVizio 3 88.00m Scr

CAMDEN CLASSIC CARNIVAL - Feb 5th 2012
Heat 5 Debbie DeVizio 2 88.00m 59.49

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Feb 17th 2012
Heat 8 Debbie DeVizio 5 92.00m 56.33 plus 4m

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 3rd 2012
Heat 7 Debbie DeVizio 2 92.00m 58.43

Camden Classic Carnival 3rd February 2013
Debbie DeVizio not entered

Hectorville Gift 17th Feb 2013
Debbie DeVizio not entered

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 9th 2013
Debbie DeVizio 92.00m

Brett Stokes: SAAL Over35s and Over45s 400m history - Camden 2011 to Flagstaff 2013


Camden Classic Carnival - Feb 6th 2011
Final 2 Brett Stokes Pink 67.00m 52.92

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 4th 2011
Heat 5 Brett Stokes 3 62.00m 58.06 minus 5m

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 12th 2011
Final 9 Brett Stokes Pink 62.00m 53.42

MT GAMBIER GIFT CARNIVAL - Dec 3rd 2011
Brett Stokes not entered

CAMDEN CLASSIC CARNIVAL - Feb 5th 2012
Final 6 Brett Stokes 2 62.00m 54.13

HECTORVILLE GIFT CARNIVAL - Feb 17th 2012
Brett Stokes not entered

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 3rd 2012
Final 7 Brett Stokes Pink 62.00m 53.82

Camden Classic Carnival 3rd February 2013
Brett Stokes not entered

Hectorville Gift 17th Feb 2013
Brett Stokes not entered

FLAGSTAFF HILL GIFT CARNIVAL - Mar 9th 2013
Brett Stokes 64.00m plus 2m

Red leg


NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! I thought we had finally seen the end of this post but not too be!! When will it end????? Its like i am in a bad dream or something of the like!! Stokesy piece of advice you worry about running and let the handicappers worry about the handicaps!!

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE STOOOOOOOOOP NOOOOOOW MY EYES ARE HURTING READING THIS DRIBBLE!

Spiderman

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Agree with Red Leg, stop the whinging. in the time it took you to write that response, you could have run a couple of split 200s.



Last edited by Spiderman on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Woody

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^^^^LIKE to both comments

Guest

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Guest
ohh nooo No
The want of transparency just proved to be too complicated. scratch
Where's the emoticon for "my head just exploded"

Stokesy

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ProTrack A Grader
ProTrack A Grader
Hey Over35er, is your brain hurting?

Well, maybe you did not notice but there has been an amendment made ...

Brian Witty now has the mark of 92m in the Over45s 400m at Flagstaff on Saturday.

Hope that helps make sense of it all.

Guest

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Guest
Na just too many facts and figures for my feeble mind to process.

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