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PROTRACK » GENERAL » SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield

SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield

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1 SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:39 pm

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Interesting results out of day 1 of the Bay Sheffield.
4 out of the 6 Finalists in the 120m restricted were inter-state runners in a field of 17 inter-state runners and 28 SA runners, so 4 from 17 inter-state made the final compared to 2 out of 28 SA runners. They took 1st and 2nd in the final.
15 out of 24 semi finalists were interstate runners only 9 SA in the 70m open. Once again 4 out of 6 in the final taking 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Similar stats in the 120m over 35's where 4 out of the 6 finalist were inter-state runners once again taking 1st, 2nd and 3rd. In a field of 33 SA runners and 12 inter-state runners so 4 from 12 made the final as opposed to only 2 from 33 being from SA.
Something is out of wack here. Mad

2 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:38 pm

Stokesy

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Time to mention chess again - chess has an international rating system - so the ratings are reliable around the world, as well as everyone being able to see how they are worked out.

In the 120m for over35s at the 2011 Bay Sheff, we had a Scotsman, a Queenslander and a Vic on the podium.

So the locals are not happy about that maybe.

In the open 120m at the 2011 Bay Sheff, we had four South Aussies on the podium.

So the "invaders" are not happy about that maybe.

Can the human handicapper please everyone?

I think there is a need for a long term plan to develop a new Handicapping System which handles:
- all categories and all distances
- local, national and international competitors
- adjustments for track and weather impacts
- identification of dodgy results so that they are not used for handicapping purposes.

The current VAL system is a step in the right direction, maybe - it looks way too complicated - I think this complication can be avoided by design.

I believe that we can use innovative methods to establish fair and reliable handicaps based on approved results, with the whole thing being automatic once results are approved for use for handicapping purposes.

No discretionary loop holes, no lobbying (except about results being approved or not).

Any thoughts?

3 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:57 am

Whispers


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I think its just too big a job for the one handicapper to handicap all distances.
Such was the pressure of doing the marks for the Bay Sheff and the worry about being blitzed by interstaters he was able to make it very hard for foreign runners to topple the locals.No doubt he probably had a lot of help from people in the know!!!!!!!!!
But in doing so ,as you say OVER35er probably not enough research was done on some of the other races.
Its probably fair to say that the help he was receiving has very little interest in the VETS and the Womans 1600 which was a farce.
Too often the previous handicapper has been getting the blame but surely not in the Womans 1600m and the Vets which you refer to.

4 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:53 am

Horse

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I think you're probably likely to find a larger percentage of the interstate runners doing well because most of them are athletes that travel over because they consider them selves solid chances to do well. Theres a lot more locals who know they aren't ready yet but are in it for the experience etc.

5 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:40 am

Whispers


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Hey horse I backed you at 6/1 with my hard earnt cash.You looked like someone that needed 140m instead of 120m.You just started getting wound up at the finish of the race.Where to from here for the HORSE.
Why the name horse, I used to have a footy mate called horse and wondered why they called him horse until I saw him in the showers one day !!!!

6 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:50 pm

NBAblues

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I think Horse is pretty close in what he says.

http://www.NBAblues.com

7 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:28 pm

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I think some of the over 35's are a bit under done atm but I feel its more about the interstaters not getting put back a few meters like when we head over to Stawell. If we dont go over there for a few meets first we will get crucified. I'm pretty sure almost no interstaters came over in the lead up to have there mark assessed.
It would appear the 120m Bay Sheffield may have been more the model all of the races should be based, I could be wrong but it would appear more accurate marks were applied.
I wounder if marks are not looked at more closely for other events with less prize money either due to being too hard and time consuming or it encourages the numbers needed to make the meet more successful?
Obviously if interstaters dont take some prize money home they too will wonder why they bother coming, but then we head over for Stawell rarely coming back with anything and we still go.
It appears one rule for some and another rule for others, a fairer handicapping system needs to apply, or interstate runners need to travel more otherwise an automatic 3m penalty (or similar)should apply to the given mark from there home state?

8 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:24 pm

Horse

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Haha I think they came up with horse because Im pretty loud in that home straight.
Sorry Whispers, thats what I get for being a lousy starter. But its getting better. I think a 140m gift would be a great idea Smile

To the xbox from here for the horse. If you have a gamer tag let me know what it is! lol

9 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:28 pm

Sandwich Hand


over35er wrote:
Interesting results out of day 1 of the Bay Sheffield.
4 out of the 6 Finalists in the 120m restricted were inter-state runners in a field of 17 inter-state runners and 28 SA runners, so 4 from 17 inter-state made the final compared to 2 out of 28 SA runners. They took 1st and 2nd in the final.
15 out of 24 semi finalists were interstate runners only 9 SA in the 70m open. Once again 4 out of 6 in the final taking 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Similar stats in the 120m over 35's where 4 out of the 6 finalist were inter-state runners once again taking 1st, 2nd and 3rd. In a field of 33 SA runners and 12 inter-state runners so 4 from 12 made the final as opposed to only 2 from 33 being from SA.
Something is out of wack here. Mad




I think some of the over 35's are a bit under done atm but I feel its more about the interstaters not getting put back a few meters like when we head over to Stawell. If we dont go over there for a few meets first we will get crucified. I'm pretty sure almost no interstaters came over in the lead up to have there mark assessed.
It would appear the 120m Bay Sheffield may have been more the model all of the races should be based, I could be wrong but it would appear more accurate marks were applied.
I wounder if marks are not looked at more closely for other events with less prize money either due to being too hard and time consuming or it encourages the numbers needed to make the meet more successful?
Obviously if interstaters dont take some prize money home they too will wonder why they bother coming, but then we head over for Stawell rarely coming back with anything and we still go.
It appears one rule for some and another rule for others, a fairer handicapping system needs to apply, or interstate runners need to travel more otherwise an automatic 3m penalty (or similar)should apply to the given mark from there home state?

More accurate marks...please spare us your narrow view! How about a wake up call to the SAAL that if they don't treat the interstaters fairly they will all head to Tasmania next year. The Bay Sheffiled is in direct competition to the Tasmanian carnivals and if they don't appease the interstaters they simply wont come (but don't get us started on the Tasmanian situation as it is far worse in terms of handicap fairness).

Congratulations to HORSE for having the correct insight by saying that the majority of intersaters that have success at the Bay Sheffield comes form their higher level of ability or preparedness to be fit enough. Nothing is out of whack. The same applies at the Stawell Gift carnival for local Victorians and the raid by interstaters there. Interstaters make up a good majority of winners and finalist because they are better runners or are simply in very good shape to win. I'd say you rarely come back from Stawell with any prizes because you are either 1. not fit enough or 2. not good enough within the handicap limits. Your choice to change approaches or to not come at all. Please don't complain.

The Victorian handicapping system has come along way in its policy development and application via the handicappers. It is still open to manipulation but if anything favours the lesser able runners quicker than without it. It does work, FACT! SAAL has in place a similar system in application but no fomral policy to guide the general punters on how it works (thank Mark and now Leon for their ethic and hard work for it to be pretty good).

While I'm ranting and you talk of one rule for some and another rule for others take a f**king look in your own backyard.
1. Interstaters that don't parade get disqualified but locals who forget or are late are free to run. What a joke!
2. Close finishes...say no more!
3. Hand picked semi-final draws (or lack of seeding)


In closing, each state operates a little differently to the others and there is much more to pro racing than the handciaps. It is great to see a junior bay sheffield and the enticement of kids to develop in the SAAL. It's more than in any other state.

cyclops

10 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:12 pm

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Stawell 2012
Firstly you point out if SAAL dont appease the inter-state runners they wont come is exactly my point to keep the inter-state runners coming to SA they have to be somewhat kind with setting the handicap.
Secondly you say it shows the inter-state runners are obviously better with a higher ability (also refer to point one), but then also mention when it comes to Stawell the inter-state runners clean up there also because they are better prepared or have a higher ability.
Your point would suggest that the SA and Vic runners are not as prepared or dont have the same abilty as the rest of the country and get cleaned up in there respective comps.
My experience has shown when I was running of around 9m or 10m I got put back to 2 or 3m just because they didnt see me run before. I had to get a Police affidavit to show my results where correct only to have them completely ignored, now thats a joke btw, so on that I will complain. My lack of success at Stawell has had nothing to do with my fitness or limits, it is from what I just mentioned.
As for rules well I have seen many inter-state runners completely ignore accepting, parading etc. I have seen some be allowed to run and I dont know why and seen others that havent been allowed as the rules state so its only there fault. I know of one over 35 runner from Vic not run in a heat but be allowed to run in the semi?
Not sure what you mean by point 2 "close finishes"
On point 3 I dont know much about how semi's are picked so I'll leave that for someone who does, but surely it doesnt matter.
Lets hope the inconsistencies get ironed out with a fairer system for all states applied, maybe with Leon the system will become better coordinated between states, with a more accurate outcome so all runners can turn compete knowing it is a fair comp at any event in any state regardless of the prize money at stake, this is all Im asking.
Handicapping is a key element of this sport so its important its done right, if its not then you will get results like we did on day 1 at the Bay, thats my opinion.

11 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:41 pm

Whispers


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To Stawell 2012
Not quite sure what you mean about Close Finishes.
The idea of handicapping is have exactly that.CLOSE FINISHES
One would presume that you may have felt hard done by in the results and had some money on some of those finishes.As far as I can recall the close finishes were pretty much interstaters v interstaters in the results so would welcome you to come back with what your concerns were.
Like OVER35er ,I dont know much about seedings in the semis but always thought it had to do with placings and time ran.
And yes I thought it a bit odd how the goal posts got moved slightly to let a SA woman run in her heat.With you on that one.
Finally totally agree with OVER35s on the Victorian handicapping.Very unique experiance for some of the SAs when they travelled interstate as it was the first time they ever got to wear RED.However things have changed over the last couple of seasons slightly and a fairer system and fairer handicapper has seen it more enjoyable to be running over the border.

12 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:01 pm

ToM

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Whispers wrote:To Stawell 2012
Not quite sure what you mean about Close Finishes.
The idea of handicapping is have exactly that.CLOSE FINISHES
One would presume that you may have felt hard done by in the results and had some money on some of those finishes.As far as I can recall the close finishes were pretty much interstaters v interstaters in the results so would welcome you to come back with what your concerns were.
Like OVER35er ,I dont know much about seedings in the semis but always thought it had to do with placings and time ran.
And yes I thought it a bit odd how the goal posts got moved slightly to let a SA woman run in her heat.With you on that one.
Finally totally agree with OVER35s on the Victorian handicapping.Very unique experiance for some of the SAs when they travelled interstate as it was the first time they ever got to wear RED.However things have changed over the last couple of seasons slightly and a fairer system and fairer handicapper has seen it more enjoyable to be running over the border.

Whispers was making a facetious point regarding some of the extremely close finishes that necessitated prolonged camera viewing by the judges. There was a perceived trend across the event that when a South Australian athlete was in a "photo finish" with an interstate athlete, the SA athlete would come out on top every time, but when it was two South Aussies, the judges had no problem calling a dead heat result. It was likely just an observational bias or statistical anomaly, but it was certainly a talking point where I was sitting.

13 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:09 pm

Whispers


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I guess it depends who you have had your money on.
I was a bit pissed off when Crawford from SA got nutted by a Vic in a photo for 3rd in the Backmarkers as I had backed him eachway.
Must have been close as the judges went to the bigger screen but in the end awarded the placing to one of those darn interstaters ahead of the local.
I guess See what you want to see.

14 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:40 am

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I have to say its been 3 years since Ive been to Stawell, and havent been back since due to the handicap system, maybe its time to give it another go, it'll have to wait till next year tho, going to Fiji for 3 weeks in April (damn shame), anyway Happy New Year all.

15 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:01 am

Whispers


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Probably nows a good time to go back to Stawell as you will find MOB reasonably fair.Definately wont hand you a race but will put you in a position where you are competative.
While on this subject ,wouldnt it be good if we (south aussies) could have a meet and greet session with MOB while he was over here.Maybe at the Pier before racing starts on the second day or after racing on the first day.Perhaps it can be arranged for next year.Would give us South Aussies the chance to meet the Victorian handicapper and have an informal discussion and question time.
Lets bring everyone a bit closer together.

16 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:28 pm

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Well you might see me at Stawell 2013 if I'm still competing or not on holidays Very Happy

17 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:49 am

Ribera

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I think regular interstate runners would be disappointed with these views. The handicaps of locals v regular interstate Bay Sheff runners are about right. It is the first timers that got a leg up this year. The first 2 past the post in the vets 120m were not regular Bay Shef runners and therefore the regular interstaters were just as bad off as the locals. There were other interstaters across all events that were first time Bay Sheff runners who got just as good a marks than these but didn't run or didn't fire. It is well known in interstate circles that to win at The Bay you need a bigger handicap than your Vic handicap. Queenslander Norris had 15.75 in Vic for a 2nd at Warragul the week before. He was allocated 15.50m for the Bay so was bound to be a chance. He also found plenty from his Warragul run. Scotsman Armstrong had 13.50m in Vic and was allocated 15.50m at the Bay. He had come off a 70m open win at Warragul off 12.50m so this was no surprise either.
It was regular Bay Sheff runners who suffered not just locals.

18 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:56 pm

Stokesy

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Hey, I whinged about the head wind LOL

As I see it, the lobbying and complaining are part of the sport - at least for the time being ...

And yes, the older Vets are indeed highly variable in performance, a real challenge for the handicapping systems ...

Happy New Year and a big sincere thanks to all the "invaders" who made it to the 125th Bay Sheffield.

19 Re: SA V's inter-state Day 1 Bay Sheffield on Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:23 pm

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There is no arguement the job of the handicapper is a difficult one. You do have to wonder why Armstrong has a 13.5 Vic handicap and was given 15.5 for the Bay, would this have happened in the 120m open?

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