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PROTRACK » GENERAL » Bay Marks

Bay Marks

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2 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 pm

Gossip Girl


Here is a list of the runners in the 120m Open Bay Sheffield who have entered an SAAL 120m open during this season.
The list shows the lifts that each of these runners has received for the bay compared to their last standing handicap.
Those who have been reduced to the limit of 11m have been excluded.

Red = 0m - 0.25m lift
Orange = 0.5m lift
Green = 0.75m - 1.25m lift


Todd Bateman 3.75 m +0.5m
Jordan Caldow 3.75 m +0
Clay Watkins 4.00 m +0.25
Wallace Long-Scafidi 4.25 m +0.75
Robbie James 4.50 m +0.5
Alex Bubner 5.00 m +0
Dale Woodhams 5.50 m +0.25
Alex Saliu 7.00 m +0.25
Ollie Wurm 7.00 m +0.5
Brett Richards 7.25 m +0.5
Andrew Steele 7.25 m +0.25
Corey Baker 7.50 m +0.5
James Cibich 7.50 m +0.5
Tom Sclanders 7.50 m +1m
Jarrod Sims 7.50 m +1m
Ben Koschade 7.75 m +0.5
Adrian Harris 8.25 m +0.5
Lyall Weir 8.50 m +0.5
Jordan Tronnolone 8.75 m +0.75
Tim Johnson 9.00 m +0.75
Trent O'Loughlin 9.00 m +0
Jarrad Dartnall 9.25 m +1m
Bradley Letton 9.50 m +1m
Brendan Ramsey 9.50 m +0
Hayden Cook 10.00 m +0.5
Troy Welfare 10.00 m +0.5
Ryan Hancock 10.25 m +0.75
David Gross 10.50 m +0.5
Dylan Hicks 10.50 m +1.25m


The greens are quite interesting...



Last edited by Gossip Girl on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

3 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:13 pm

Admin

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Rusty,
There are SA athletes in this field with bigger lifts than Tronnolone.

Firstly, Tronnolone has the same mark he had last year when he failed to make the final. So he is no better off than last year. And in respect to a few others he is worse off. Some have gone forward on last year's mark.

There were only 30 athletes entered for Brighton who have entered for the Bay Sheffield. That makes 60 athletes (66.67%) in the Bay Sheffield who did not run in the Brighton Gift. You don't need to be Einstein to realise there would be plenty in the 60 absentees who were in shape to give Brighton a shake but didn't.

The more important statistic is that there were only 16 Bay Sheffield entrants who actually ran in the Brighton 120m Gift. That's 74 runners who didn't run at Brighton.

So Jordan beat home 15 other Bay Sheffield entrants. Of the seven in the final, 3 were on marks in excess of the Bay Sheffield limit. One (Hicks) goes forward more than Jordan does, another (dual finalist Hancock) goes forward the same 0.75 as Jordan and another (Gross) was in the final last year and meets Jordan 0.25m worse off.



Last edited by Admin on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:33 pm

FMeister


Paul, have a read of rusty's comments. He has clearly stated that these guys are in GOOD FORM coming in to the Bay. Obviously James is in some really good form, clearly shown through the 70 on the weekend. As with Jordan. Is it a bad thing to state your athletes are in obvious form?

Gross and Hicks will be interesting off the marks out there. Will Long-Scafidi and Sclanders be able to make a showing of their marks?

Few to watch from interstate;

Paul Cracroft-Wilson 7.75 m
Edward Ware 8.00 m

any results from these guys as of late?

5 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:59 pm

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Fmeister,

The comment was a lot more about the fact he goes forward 0.75m (as opposed to others getting 0.50m) than anything about form.

No problems at all with Rusty's comments on Robbie James, that's appreciated.

If Robbie James makes the final off 4.50m, after running 5th off 6.50m in 2010, it will be a massive effort.

I actually reckon Rusty's a terrific bloke, a character of the game, but I'd prefer if he didn't mention my athletes & handicap lifts. That's the only little thing he annoys me with, otherwise he'd be the first bloke to have a beer with. Laughing

Anyway FMeister, you can read about every athlete (in the Bay Sheffield) some time tomorrow.

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6 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:31 pm

Whispers


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Obviously no chance of winning the Bay Sheff but its hard to understand how Cooky can race out to his 10m bypassing other runners that run consistantly over the distance.

7 Re: Bay Marks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:45 pm

OUT OF THE BLOCKS


hi - first post, trying to get my head round this so please don't be too harsh. A lot of this is question/enquiries:

Interesting that the two major gift winners so far this season both got significant lifts (1m and 0.75m), despite only having one run each at 120m since their wins. I guess the lifts are more to do with Ross' presence?

And while i know Hicks won a non penalty meet, I would have thought his win would dictate none, or a small lift, not an extra .75m! He will be tough to beat from that mark - appears to be runnign extremely well (credit to him and his coach!)

Saliu only gets .25m but has hardly made a final for the last two years? is that because of his previous bay form? Ditto Clay Watkins?

Looks like a lot of chances! Any of the YGTS could win!

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9 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:18 am

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Sorry Rusty,

I've edited my previous post.

Last night's rant was written while I was putting the final touches to the Protrack Bay Sheffield Form Guide.

I was exhausted and frustrated at how long the form guide had taken.

It's been a very stressful 5 days, and later today you will see why.

All the best for Christmas and I owe you a beer at the Bay.

As for 'Whispers' comment about Hayden Cook - you can't be serious. Laughing He hasn't 'bypassed' anyone. (Name one?) He's still a long way short of what he needs to be competitive in a 120m. Sounds like you're happy for Hayden to get smashed in heats for a few more years. Plese don't ever put in for the handicapping job if that's your attitude. There's runners in this event on more than 10m who will thrash Hayden.

Anyway, he won't be running.

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10 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:14 am

Horse

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May we please see this Protrack Bay Sheffield Form Guide? Smile

11 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:50 am

Betina


pretty please.

And the schedule of events!

12 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:07 am

Admin

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http://protrack.easyforumlive.com/f13-2011-protrack-bay-sheffield-form-guide

I have had trouble trying to post in one hit.

It appears in 6 different pages (posts) - 15 athletes per page.

At the moment it's for members only.

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13 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:32 pm

Whispers


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Admin wrote:

As for 'Whispers' comment about Hayden Cook - you can't be serious. Laughing He hasn't 'bypassed' anyone. (Name one?) He's still a long way short of what he needs to be competitive in a 120m. Sounds like you're happy for Hayden to get smashed in heats for a few more years. Plese don't ever put in for the handicapping job if that's your attitude. There's runners in this event on more than 10m who will thrash Hayden.

Anyway, he won't be running.


Fully understand that Cooky hasnt a hope in hell and would have been smashed but thats what I have actually written.Hes already made a novice 120m final this season and 10m is a pretty good mark to get out to so quick for later on.
As for bypassing people HARRIS must be left wondering

14 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:48 pm

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Fairly silly comment, comparing Adrian Harris (read the Harris form guide profile) with a bloke who's been around for 10 years.

Based on your rationale - Amin Chehade should have run off the novice in the Brighton Gift on Sunday and have no more than 7.00m in the Bay Sheffield. After all Chehade's first ever entry in a Gift was Brighton and this Bay Sheffield would be his first.

Handicapping involves an element of common sense and guys who have been around as long as Hayden Cook (and Amin Chehade) have enough runs on the board for a handicapper to know what a ballpark mark they need to be competitive in any distance. It's futile to start them back on the novice mark in a distance they have no prowess in. I have no idea what you see in Cook - but rest assured he won't be doing any damage over 120m for quite a long time.

Surely you have bigger problems than worrying about a battler (in sprint terms) who has no chance of getting within cooee in his heat and won't be running anyway?

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15 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:59 pm

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This is to Whispers,

I just deleted your latest post because it was mischevious and lacked basic facts.

If you want to make comparisons at least acknowledge the wins (and prizemoney) each person has had that has led to the change in marks. Your post was brazenly stupid.

eg: Robbie James is back 2m and David Gross is back 0.25m from last year's Bay Sheffield final, even though Gross beat James home. Obviously Robbie gets the pull for Burnie. So the marks are relative to the success they've had.

I won't be accepting any more posts like the one that was deleted.

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16 Re: Bay Marks on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:59 am

Whispers


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First of all my post had nothing to do with the mens Gift so its pointless making comparisons ,you need to compare eggs with eggs.
Secondly you asked me to supply facts so here goes.
Trewartha gets pulled for not winning the Bay but running 2nd.She gets pulled a whopping 3 metres.
Trewartha has run consistantly with the league and didnt make the final at Marion,3rd at Hectorville,3rd at Loxton and 5th at Flagstaff and I cant access this seasons results but she hasnt had a win YET hasnt got any of her mark back.
Di Paolo ran 6th in the final of the Bay although beaten a fair way.She kept her mark at 7.00m and then it was reduced to 6.75.She ran 2nd at Marion,2nd at Hectorville,2nd at Loxton.Only got access to the results on the SAAL website so cant compare this seasons results.
But in all the two girls meetings on the website DiPaolo has beaten Trewartha.
For two local girls that run consistantly with the league, I dont think both of them having been given any chance of winning.
I think DiPaolo should have received around 7.50m to be in the game and Trewartha around 12.75
Surely you gain credits by running.

17 Re: Bay Marks on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:35 pm

Admin

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This one is a little better, still lacks basic facts, but you are getting there.

The 3m back is not just for running 2nd in the Women's Bay Sheffield, but taken into account, was accumulated prizemoney for winning:

Port Adelaide Women's 120m
Whyalla Women's 120m
Flinders 70m
Mt Gambier Women's 400m
Pulteney Women's 70m

Also 2nd in the Womens Bay Sheffield 70m.

Lucy Buckley went back similarly for her accumulated winnings and she couldn't make the final off 15, two years ago.

You win a lot of money, you go back, that's how it works.

Trewartha has won a lot of races in this sport at some stage you have to take a hit for that.

DiPaolo did not win her first race until she was 30 years old after years of being left on ridiculously tight marks. She has won one 120m race in her career - at Henley and it was worth a whopping $95 to the winner! She is now 32 years of age and runs off 7.0 and her next 120m win appears to be a fair way off.

Realistically (unlike Ali in 2010 who went awfully close) She has NEVER had a chance in any major race. At best, she makes up numbers in a final like last last year's Bay Sheffield.

There's a lot to consider, as a handicapper, the 2nd place needs to be put in context in terms of the advantage an athlete has over the rest of the field. Have a look at the margin she was beaten by (0.01s) the time she ran (13.75s - 3m inside net time) and the difference between her and the other SA girls. She beats most of them by 3m plus. Eg: She beat DiPaolo by 4m in the final.

Ali Trewartha won the 400m at Mt Gambier earlier this month and has made several finals. She has improved considerably under Steve Butler and that's a credit to her and Steve. She is very competitive off her marks and given how long she has been sprint training, probably has more improvement in her. 11.75m is still a very competitive mark given the above information.

It's pointless discussing it any futher. We could drag up name after name and discuss the merits of their 'treatment' post numerous wins and prizemoney but it goes around in circles.


PS: The comparisons were apt because you took last year's final and only commented on how much each athlete was back, inferring that DiPaolo was getting some sort of unfair advantage.

The same could be done for the main race (as I did) and on the surface Robbie James looks like he's been treated harshly going back 2m for 'only' running 5th behind Gross who has gone back 0.25m for 4th. But the reality is Robbie has gone back for other wins and prizemoney, not just the 5th place in the final, so the marks are fair & reasonable.


END of DISCUSSION on this topic. Move on.


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18 Re: Bay Marks on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:29 pm

Smoke n Mirrorz


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I agree JH, a handicappers job is tough enough as it is. They have to deal with:

Comments on these forums

Trainers threatening to pull out of carnivals if they don't get treated well

Trainers/runners constantly calling them asking for more and more of a lift



It's good to know you leave it up to them and take it on the chin.



19 Re: Bay Marks on Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:53 am

Whispers


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Bumped into a good mate of mine last night, who studys the handicaps till early hours of the morning.Its amazing what a few drinks does to get someone talking.
He told me that the 550m will more than likely be won by someone off 50m or more and stipulated the more.
The girls 1600m ,he said the Vic girls must have thought Santa had come early.Sure theres some real talent among the backmarkers but can they get through traffic at Colley to challenge the Vics.Martine Beer wins the 1600m two years ago off 200m and runs in the 4.40s and has been alloted 230m this year.Dont write off the other Vic girls either off 200 plus marks.Although I doubt it he told me the Vic girls could run one two.
Hope Mob looks after the South Aussies just as much when we cross the border.

20 Re: Bay Marks on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:35 pm

Whispers


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Well wasnt that the worst bit of handicapping seen in a distance event for awhile And to think we were saved from further embarrassment by three of the Vic girls not running.

21 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:21 am

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Whispers wrote:First of all my post had nothing to do with the mens Gift so its pointless making comparisons ,you need to compare eggs with eggs.
Secondly you asked me to supply facts so here goes.
Trewartha gets pulled for not winning the Bay but running 2nd.She gets pulled a whopping 3 metres.
Trewartha has run consistantly with the league and didnt make the final at Marion,3rd at Hectorville,3rd at Loxton and 5th at Flagstaff and I cant access this seasons results but she hasnt had a win YET hasnt got any of her mark back.
Di Paolo ran 6th in the final of the Bay although beaten a fair way.She kept her mark at 7.00m and then it was reduced to 6.75.She ran 2nd at Marion,2nd at Hectorville,2nd at Loxton.Only got access to the results on the SAAL website so cant compare this seasons results.
But in all the two girls meetings on the website DiPaolo has beaten Trewartha.
For two local girls that run consistantly with the league, I dont think both of them having been given any chance of winning.
I think DiPaolo should have received around 7.50m to be in the game and Trewartha around 12.75
Surely you gain credits by running.


Hey Whispers
How silly do you look now, pushing for a 1m lift for Trewartha?
No chance of winning?
Was that Treartha I saw on the podium?
Youngy was 100% right. 11.75 was SUPA competitive for Trewartha.
12.75 would have been a joke. Ask the girls who were tailed off behind her.
People are sick and tired of watching the same girls off big marks making major finals. Bout time Zoe and Ali wore red white or blue in a final!

22 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:17 am

Whispers


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Like I said Trackstar ,had no chance of winning and needed an extra metre.
Perhaps you werent at the Bay ,couldnt have been or else you would have seen that Trewartha got beaten by more than a metre.
Comparisons with Hubbards PBs and handicap showed Trewartha was always going to be 1 plus metre away.
What the final has shown ,was for me to be pretty well right on the money.
I also made mention that Diapolo should have had more.
Maybe a lot of runners should have had more.
What a race it would have been if Trewartha had been off 1 metre more, but Trackstar if you go to the races to watch one sided events no wonder you are happy.

23 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:23 am

Whispers


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And while we are on the subject of handicapping Trackstar, you would have really got your rocks off on the result of the womens 1600m.

24 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:34 am

Trackstar

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Whispers, Are you serious? No chance?

She was in up to her neck. 0.05 off having the fastest time.

Semi final times
Trewartha 14.16
Hubbard 14.20
Wrench-Doody 14.11

Another metre and she has THE fastest time!
The final shows YOU have no idea!
The 40 girls who finished well behind her would be rapt to see her on 12.75! If so they all needed to be lifted 3!
Trewartha - 2 podium finishes in 2 years. hope next year she comes back to 10 and someone else gets a shot!

25 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:50 am

Whispers


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Like I said Trackstar ,you obviously wasnt there at the Bay.
Winds were quite fluctuating and to not be there and not access wind variation from heat to heat has you second guessing which you are obviously good at.
Whatever way you look at it, give the athlete credit for coming so far in the sport in 12 months.To be pulled 3 metres after not winning in 2011 and to reach the podium in 2012 is a great effort.
As you are obviously a very learnt person when it comes to handicapping I ask you this......



Last edited by Admin on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional nonsense is unwarranted.)

26 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:06 pm

JB


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The word is learned. And I agree with Trackstar. Leon gave her the right mark and she certainly didn't deserve a lift. She made the final and finished on the podium two years in a row.

Leon handicapped the entire Bay Sheff with a lot of thought and a lot of credit needs to go out to him for a terrific two days of close racing.



Last edited by JB on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

27 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:21 pm

Admin

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Whispers - I have sent you a private message. As yet you have not responded, so I deleted some of your previous comment. It was mischevious and unnecessary.

Regardless of the race and let's talk in general terms, it is utter nonsense to argue that a person was 'uncompetitive' when the person finishes on the podium and records the second fastest time of the semis. Any person who achieves such a result is competitive and clearly has a mark that has them in the contest.

You do not have access to a wind gauge so it's futile to say that some times were more wind affected than others, particularly when the events are only 5 minutes apart. The fact is the time was very competitive in light of the other semi times. That is indisputable. You need only look at the Bay Sheffield itself to know that any time within 0.05s of the fastest semi time meant the athlete was well in the contest.

It's also condescending to Trackstar to suggest he/she was not present at the meet. I don't know if Trackstar was there or not, but it is irrelevant as Trackstar was making reference to the facts in a particular race - facts that cannot be disputed, regardless of your attempt to do otherwise.

Trackstar has not 'second guessed' anything. Trackstar has presented the facts: a very competitive semi time + a podium finish = Right mark. As I said that would be a reasonable assumption for any race not just the one in question.

And please refrain from dragging up hypotheticals regarding YGTS athletes. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Btw, I sent Trackstar a private message to request he/she does not add to this discussion.


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28 Re: Bay Marks on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:58 pm

The Morphy Mongrel

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I agree with JB.
Spot on Youngy.
To argue a person runs 3rd is uncompetitive is insulting to all the other athletes who couldn't make the final. Methinks chicks like Mittiga or Edwards would like to waltz into a final off 11.75!
Whipper get a grip man, you sound like a nutter!

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